Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 31 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:25 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 793
Location: Sydney, Australia
Religion: nothing
What if Mary have declined to have Jesus? Would God have accepted her decision and moved onto someone else?

_________________
he aha te mea nui o te ao? he tangata he tangata he tangata!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:31 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:13 pm
Posts: 34073
Location: Midwest
Religion: Catholic
Yes Mary could of said no. However her will was in perfect accord with God's will and God knew this.

God did not have a list of Jewish virgins lined up in case she said no.


SV

_________________
“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:40 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 793
Location: Sydney, Australia
Religion: nothing
St Veronica wrote:
God did not have a list of Jewish virgins lined up in case she said no.
But that's precisely what God should have done, in case Mary said no. Knowing beforehand that Mary would not say no seems to leave her with a false choice. Moreover, she was immaculately concieved. Again, God seems to have been preparing for this.

If Mary did say no, what would have happened to Jesus? To Mary? Being without sin, would she continue living without sin and hence go to heaven that way by the circumstances of her birth?

_________________
he aha te mea nui o te ao? he tangata he tangata he tangata!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:46 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:13 pm
Posts: 34073
Location: Midwest
Religion: Catholic
Nooj wrote:
St Veronica wrote:
God did not have a list of Jewish virgins lined up in case she said no.
But that's precisely what God should have done, in case Mary said no. Knowing beforehand that Mary would not say no seems to leave her with a false choice. Moreover, she was immaculately concieved. Again, God seems to have been preparing for this.

If Mary did say no, what would have happened to Jesus? To Mary? Being without sin, would she continue living without sin and hence go to heaven that way by the circumstances of her birth?



Who are you to say God should of had a list? God didn't need a list because God knew Mary would say yes. Just because God knew what she would say does not take away her free will.

God knows what you are going to do every second for the rest of your life. You still have the ability to make choices.

SV

_________________
“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:50 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 793
Location: Sydney, Australia
Religion: nothing
St Veronica wrote:
Who are you to say God should of had a list? God didn't need a list because God knew Mary would say yes. Just because God knew what she would say does not take away her free will.
Fine, lets not get into a foreknowledge vs free will debate. So what if Mary did say no. What would happen.

_________________
he aha te mea nui o te ao? he tangata he tangata he tangata!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:57 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:13 pm
Posts: 34073
Location: Midwest
Religion: Catholic
Nooj wrote:
St Veronica wrote:
Who are you to say God should of had a list? God didn't need a list because God knew Mary would say yes. Just because God knew what she would say does not take away her free will.
Fine, lets not get into a foreknowledge vs free will debate. So what if Mary did say no. What would happen.



I'm not going to argue pointless situations with you. We already know that didn't happen. God knew Mary would not say no.


SV

_________________
“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:01 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 793
Location: Sydney, Australia
Religion: nothing
St Veronica wrote:

I'm not going to argue pointless situations with you. We already know that didn't happen. God knew Mary would not say no.


SV
First of all, I'm not keeping you here. They're just questions, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

You said Mary could have said no. So there must be scenarios when Mary would say no. I'm just speculating on what would happen in that alternative history, if Mary did say no like she could have.

_________________
he aha te mea nui o te ao? he tangata he tangata he tangata!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:06 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:13 pm
Posts: 34073
Location: Midwest
Religion: Catholic
God does not need to run senarios as to other options nor does He need to play the 'what if' game. He knew the outcome.

This forum is not for debating speculation. It's for the discussion of various points of faith.

If you want to play games with 'what if' there are other forums out there.


SV

_________________
“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:20 pm 
Offline
DIY Guru Moderator
DIY Guru Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 15773
Location: Gone fishin'
Religion: Jesus said, "This IS My Body!"
Mary could have said no. The fact that one can say no does not make it a remote possibility that they will. I can choose to murder someone. There is not a remote possibility that I will. This does not make something a false choice, but merely a choice negated by my personal composition and the grace I have been given.

_________________
Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:21 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 793
Location: Sydney, Australia
Religion: nothing
St Veronica wrote:
He knew the outcome.
Yes I know that, I'm saying what if He knew a different outcome. The logical necessity of everyone having free will is that things could have turned out differently, Adam and Eve didn't have to take the fruit from the tree, Abraham could have rebuffed God and not taken Isaac to Mount Moriah, Jesus could have been tempted by Satan.

In fact on page 3 of this forum, pax had a debating speculation sorta similar in tone to mine, Was it possible for Jesus to sin?

And I think I asked about the immaculate conception of Mary as well, whether she would have gone to heaven if she'd continued to be sinless without knowing or accepting Jesus. So I'm not doing this for giggles, I'm asking about your religion.

The M Word wrote:
Mary could have said no. The fact that one can say no does not make it a remote possibility that they will. I can choose to murder someone. There is not a remote possibility that I will.

This does not make something a false choice, but merely a choice negated by my personal composition and the grace I have been given.
I disagree. The possibility of you murdering someone right now while you are behind the computer is extremely remote I admit, but if the circumstances were different, there is the possibility (however slight) that you would. I know if someone kidnapped by family and told me to murder someone if I wanted to see them safe again, I know that I could possibly commit murder. However slight that chance is.

_________________
he aha te mea nui o te ao? he tangata he tangata he tangata!


Last edited by Nooj on Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:24 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73242
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
There is no point to playing "what if" because there is no "what if". His plans are perfect because He already knows the outcome. There can be no Plan B.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:28 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:13 pm
Posts: 34073
Location: Midwest
Religion: Catholic
Nooj wrote:
St Veronica wrote:
He knew the outcome.
Yes I know that, I'm saying what if He knew a different outcome. The logical necessity of everyone having free will is that things could have turned out differently, Adam and Eve didn't have to take the fruit from the tree, Abraham could have rebuffed God and not taken Isaac to Mount Moriah, Jesus could have been tempted by Satan.

In fact on page 3 of this forum, pax had a debating speculation sorta similar in tone to mine, Was it possible for Jesus to sin?

And I think I asked about the immaculate conception of Mary as well, whether she would have gone to heaven if she'd continued to be sinless without knowing or accepting Jesus. So I'm not doing this for giggles, I'm asking about your religion.



Pax was asking the question to make a point to another poster(s) here. Not speculating in the manner you are.

Do you actually understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception means? Your question leads me to think you don't.


SV

_________________
“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:29 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73242
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
El, he's an atheist. :fyi:

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:33 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:13 pm
Posts: 34073
Location: Midwest
Religion: Catholic
Yes I saw that after my first post in the thread. However if he's going to argue our belief system he should at least understand it first. :)


SV

_________________
“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:34 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 793
Location: Sydney, Australia
Religion: nothing
Signum Crucis wrote:
There is no point to playing "what if" because there is no "what if". His plans are perfect because He already knows the outcome. There can be no Plan B.
Okay...what if God chose a different plan? Was this plan, the one we have in the Bible, the only one he could have done? Surely there is the possibility that God could have chosen and carried out an equally perfect, or even better plan.

Quote:
Do you actually understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception means? Your question leads me to think you don't.
I'd be glad if you could explain it to me. As I understand it, Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that Mary was free from original sin from the moment of her conception.
Quote:
Pax was asking the question to make a point to another poster(s) here. Not speculating in the manner you are.
She/he also asked: What would be the theological/hypothetical implications of Jesus sinning?

_________________
he aha te mea nui o te ao? he tangata he tangata he tangata!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:35 pm 
Offline
DIY Guru Moderator
DIY Guru Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 15773
Location: Gone fishin'
Religion: Jesus said, "This IS My Body!"
Nooj wrote:
St Veronica wrote:
He knew the outcome.
Yes I know that, I'm saying what if He knew a different outcome. The logical necessity of everyone having free will is that things could have turned out differently, Adam and Eve didn't have to take the fruit from the tree, Abraham could have rebuffed God and not taken Isaac to Mount Moriah, Jesus could have been tempted by Satan.

In fact on page 3 of this forum, pax had a debating speculation sorta similar in tone to mine, Was it possible for Jesus to sin?

And I think I asked about the immaculate conception of Mary as well, whether she would have gone to heaven if she'd continued to be sinless without knowing or accepting Jesus. So I'm not doing this for giggles, I'm asking about your religion.

The M Word wrote:
Mary could have said no. The fact that one can say no does not make it a remote possibility that they will. I can choose to murder someone. There is not a remote possibility that I will.

This does not make something a false choice, but merely a choice negated by my personal composition and the grace I have been given.
I disagree. The possibility of you murdering someone right now while you are behind the computer is extremely remote I admit, but if the circumstances were different, there is the possibility (however slight) that you would. I know if someone kidnapped by family and told me to murder someone if I wanted to see them safe again, I know that I could possibly commit murder. However slight that chance is.


The creation of wild fabrications in the attempt to get around my makeup is stretching things. There are questions asked and answered in my life. Even in the situation noted, I would not be given at all to murder. My makeup is such that the kidnappers would not be safe, but that is hardly murder.

I can also say with certainty that it is not within me to cheat on my husband. That I have had plenty of opportunity, offers, etc. and could indeed make such a choice, to do so is not in my makeup or in accordance with the vocation I was created for.

_________________
Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:37 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:13 pm
Posts: 34073
Location: Midwest
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
I'd be glad if you could explain it to me. As I understand it, Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that Mary was free from original sin from the moment of her conception.


Mary was saved prior to her birth. Ergo she was going to heaven.



SV

_________________
“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:37 pm 
Offline
DIY Guru Moderator
DIY Guru Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 15773
Location: Gone fishin'
Religion: Jesus said, "This IS My Body!"
Nooj wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
There is no point to playing "what if" because there is no "what if". His plans are perfect because He already knows the outcome. There can be no Plan B.
Okay...what if God chose a different plan? Was this plan, the one we have in the Bible, the only one he could have done? Surely there is the possibility that God could have chosen and carried out an equally perfect, or even better plan.

Quote:
Do you actually understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception means? Your question leads me to think you don't.
I'd be glad if you could explain it to me. As I understand it, Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that Mary was free from original sin from the moment of her conception.
Quote:
Pax was asking the question to make a point to another poster(s) here. Not speculating in the manner you are.
She/he also asked: What would be the theological/hypothetical implications of Jesus sinning?


God could have indeed chosen another plan of salvation. COuld it have been more perfect than the plan he chose? No.

_________________
Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:42 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 793
Location: Sydney, Australia
Religion: nothing
St Veronica wrote:
Mary was saved prior to her birth. Ergo she was going to heaven.
I've just learned something new, thank you.

If she was saved prior to her birth, does that mean she couldn't have gone to Hell? 95% of my time I've spent talking to Christians have been with Protestants, and there continues to be a debate in some circles about whether if you were saved once, you are always saved. Would that be the case for Mary?

_________________
he aha te mea nui o te ao? he tangata he tangata he tangata!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:42 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73242
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Nooj wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
There is no point to playing "what if" because there is no "what if". His plans are perfect because He already knows the outcome. There can be no Plan B.
Okay...what if God chose a different plan? Was this plan, the one we have in the Bible, the only one he could have done? Surely there is the possibility that God could have chosen and carried out an equally perfect, or even better plan.


God can do anything He wants to do. He chose to do it this way and this way is the way that benefits us the most. There can be no "better" plan. Even knowing that people's free will would lead them into sin, He chose to sacrifice His only begotten Son to redeem mankind. His gift to us is greater than anything we could imagine on our own. We have the opportunity to learn and grow spiritually, to practice charity, to love our fellow man, and to appreciate what God has done for us in a way that would not be possible under some alternate plan.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 31 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: