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 Post subject: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:44 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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I have an obstinant follower of John Wesley who is trying to tell me that the Bible supports gay marriage.

Not only the bible but according to him "reality" supports it.

His reason is that, according to him, there is nothing that would befall a homosexual couple that wouldn't befall a heterosexual couple, as well as what he calls "murky references" in the bible, so therefore he asserts that gay marriage is morally acceptable.

He claims that no one can prove that there exists any physical or spiritual harm that befalls a homosexual couple that wouldn't befall a heterosexual couple therefore "reality" testifies to the acceptance of such acts.

I have given him biblical prooftexts and he dismisses them as "vague".

I know his is an exteme form of moral and ethical rationalistic thought but just when I seem to have him pinned down he squeezes out.

Please help?


How do I refute this?

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:54 pm 
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How do you refute something that doesn't make a lot of sense and doesn't have specific Biblical references? I don't think that you do.... especially when your Biblical references are dismissed as "vague" (when, last I looked, the references to homosexuality in the Bible were anything but).

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:15 pm 
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The Grey Pilgrim wrote:
I have an obstinant follower of John Wesley who is trying to tell me that the Bible supports gay marriage.

Not only the bible but according to him "reality" supports it.

His reason is that, according to him, there is nothing that would befall a homosexual couple that wouldn't befall a heterosexual couple, as well as what he calls "murky references" in the bible, so therefore he asserts that gay marriage is morally acceptable.

He claims that no one can prove that there exists any physical or spiritual harm that befalls a homosexual couple that wouldn't befall a heterosexual couple therefore "reality" testifies to the acceptance of such acts.

I have given him biblical prooftexts and he dismisses them as "vague".

I know his is an exteme form of moral and ethical rationalistic thought but just when I seem to have him pinned down he squeezes out.

Please help?

How do I refute this?


Is it a debate on the internet? or in a message? If it is, maybe you can post it and we can dissect it with you.

Sincerely,

De Maria


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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:02 pm 
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The Grey Pilgrim wrote:
I have given him biblical prooftexts and he dismisses them as"vague".
What's so vague about this: Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:32 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim wrote:
I have given him biblical prooftexts and he dismisses them as"vague".
What's so vague about this: Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."


the problem with that (not that I think it's invalid) is that it could be seen as a law regarding ritual purity like the eating laws (it isn't of course).

I think the biggest way to do it is to show that marriage is ordered to a procreative end. That which society refers to as "gay marriage" has no procreative end.

ETA: Whatever John Wesley's theological problems were, I think he'd be rolling over in his grave so to speak at the current state of the Methodists ... what with ordination of women and their lapses in the issues related to homosexuality.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:40 pm 
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RaginCajunJoe wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim wrote:
I have given him biblical prooftexts and he dismisses them as"vague".
What's so vague about this: Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."


the problem with that (not that I think it's invalid) is that it could be seen as a law regarding ritual purity like the eating laws (it isn't of course).

I think the biggest way to do it is to show that marriage is ordered to a procreative end. That which society refers to as "gay marriage" has no procreative end.

ETA: Whatever John Wesley's theological problems were, I think he'd be rolling over in his grave so to speak at the current state of the Methodists ... what with ordination of women and their lapses in the issues related to homosexuality.
The ritual purity argument is weak because this scripture makes an absolute prohibition of sex with someone of the same gender. There is no allowance for sex like this being appropriate at some other time.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:43 pm 
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all their arguments are weak :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:44 pm 
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I'm with RCJ on this part: This is not Wesley's fault, and this guy is not an ardent follower of his. Of current-day Methodism, quite possibly.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:45 pm 
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BTW, Romans 1 is a better text on this point than Leviticus.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:10 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
BTW, Romans 1 is a better text on this point than Leviticus.
Perhaps a composite argument would be even better. In the OT homosexual relations were an abomination, (Leviticus) and this was re-affirmed in the NT (Romans) :)

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:15 pm 
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Yes, but Romans avoids the shellfish issue altogether.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:23 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Yes, but Romans avoids the shellfish issue altogether.
Thou shalt not lie with a shellfish?

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:33 am 
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metal1633 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Yes, but Romans avoids the shellfish issue altogether.
Thou shalt not lie with a shellfish?



:tomatos :flag :barf:

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:47 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
BTW, Romans 1 is a better text on this point than Leviticus.

Actually, 1 Cor 6:9f is better than Romans 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:51 pm 
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Catholic Dude wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
BTW, Romans 1 is a better text on this point than Leviticus.

Actually, 1 Cor 6:9f is better than Romans 1.


Some other form of marine biology?


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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Catholic Dude wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
BTW, Romans 1 is a better text on this point than Leviticus.

Actually, 1 Cor 6:9f is better than Romans 1.

Maybe not. The word translated there as "homosexual" or "effeminate" also has other meanings. I think that's the right one, given the context, but you can stop a whole pointless discussion in its tracks by not relying on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:00 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Catholic Dude wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
BTW, Romans 1 is a better text on this point than Leviticus.

Actually, 1 Cor 6:9f is better than Romans 1.

Maybe not. The word translated there as "homosexual" or "effeminate" also has other meanings. I think that's the right one, given the context, but you can stop a whole pointless discussion in its tracks by not relying on it.

The "problem" with Romans 1 is that "leaders" like Super-Liberal Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong actually wrote books not too long ago saying homosexuality is not a sin and that Romans 1 is not against homosexuality but rather how God lets straight people fall into that as a punishment. The part where Rom 1 says "God gave them over to" is what Spong argues is not against homosexuality per se, so that text cannot be used. He is obviously full of crud, but I don't think he can twist his way out of 1 Cor 6:9-10.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:06 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
BTW, Romans 1 is a better text on this point than Leviticus.


I agree ... I was going to say that in my post and it slipped my mind completely.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:07 pm 
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You haven't run into someone who argues that "malakos" really means "a lady's man" yet, have you? Run too far with that verse and you will.

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 Post subject: Re: Help!!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:07 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You haven't run into someone who argues that "malakos" really means "a lady's man" yet, have you? Run too far with that verse and you will.

If you are responding to me, I'm not sure what you are getting at.

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