Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 74 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:06 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:43 pm
Posts: 379
Religion: Catholic
ajw333 wrote:
Psalm 95:6 "Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker!"

Would you believe it, none of the above! We bow before the Lord Himself.


If I interpret that correctly, Solomon was kneeling before the ALTAR, an unhewn rock which symbolized God.

1 Kings 8:54
And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven.

And here is kneeling before the congregation:
2 Chronicles 6:13
For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven.

Was he wrong? Or do you think he knew that he wasn't worshipping a rock nor the congregation?

Sincerely,

De Maria


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:31 pm 
Offline
*****
*****
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:46 am
Posts: 8750
Religion: Christian
Signum Crucis wrote:
Kneeling before a statue to pray is no different than kneeling before your bed to pray. It is the person to whom we pray, not the object itself. The object is simply a reminder of that person. Kneeling to pray isn't in and of itself worship. If it is, then any kneeling at all would constitute worship of whatever we're kneeling in front of. Even our shoes or our oven or a flat tire. :wink:
Not one person from Genesis to Revelation ever needed to bow or kneel before a statue. If it was unnesessary for Christians in the Bible to this, why has it become a nessessity today?

IMO this particular Catholic practice appears to indicate that the expression of worship in Scripture is somehow deficient and needs to be added to.

_________________
"Our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love." Pope Benedict XVI


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:42 pm 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
ajw333 wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Kneeling before a statue to pray is no different than kneeling before your bed to pray. It is the person to whom we pray, not the object itself. The object is simply a reminder of that person. Kneeling to pray isn't in and of itself worship. If it is, then any kneeling at all would constitute worship of whatever we're kneeling in front of. Even our shoes or our oven or a flat tire. :wink:
Not one person from Genesis to Revelation ever needed to bow or kneel before a statue. If it was unnesessary for Christians in the Bible to this, why has it become a nessessity today?

IMO this particular Catholic practice appears to indicate that the expression of worship in Scripture is somehow deficient and needs to be added to.


David danced before the Ark which had statues of angels of it.

_________________
We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:51 pm 
Offline
Ancient Mariner
Ancient Mariner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:04 pm
Posts: 16966
Location: If I'm not there I must be here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Honorary Member 3rd degree KC
Lets not forget the snake Moses made.

_________________
The Gate of Heaven is the Door of the Confessional.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:56 pm 
Offline
Jedi Padawan
Jedi Padawan
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:55 pm
Posts: 5851
Location: A district of well-ordered business
Religion: Roman Catholic
ajw333 wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Kneeling before a statue to pray is no different than kneeling before your bed to pray. It is the person to whom we pray, not the object itself. The object is simply a reminder of that person. Kneeling to pray isn't in and of itself worship. If it is, then any kneeling at all would constitute worship of whatever we're kneeling in front of. Even our shoes or our oven or a flat tire. :wink:
Not one person from Genesis to Revelation ever needed to bow or kneel before a statue. If it was unnesessary for Christians in the Bible to this, why has it become a nessessity today?

IMO this particular Catholic practice appears to indicate that the expression of worship in Scripture is somehow deficient and needs to be added to.


Christians in the Bible also did not possess much at all in the way of art, or at least art that was not in some way, shape, or form obviously pagan. It would not at all have made sense to bow down before a statue of Jupiter or Minerva in the way it would have to bow down before that of a saint, whose intercession was requested and whose spiritual example was admired. I'm betting the Christians didn't have pews, either, or much in the way of musical accompaniment (certainly not an organ or piano) to their worship, so would you argue that those also are not permissible?

_________________
"Beati estis cum maledixerint vobis et persecuti vos fuerint et dixerint omne malum adversum vos, mentientes, propter me. Gaudete et exsultate, quoniam merces vestra copiosa est in caelis; sic enim persecuti sunt prophetas, qui fuerunt ante vos." Mt. V. xi-xii


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:04 pm 
Offline
Ancient Mariner
Ancient Mariner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:04 pm
Posts: 16966
Location: If I'm not there I must be here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Honorary Member 3rd degree KC
We also need to remember that St. Luke painted the Black Madonna on Mary's kitchen table.

What a shocker!!! An apostle painting a picture of Jesus and Mary!!!

_________________
The Gate of Heaven is the Door of the Confessional.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:19 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:13 pm
Posts: 34073
Location: Midwest
Religion: Catholic
http://www.zenit.org/english/

This is an excellent summarization of the article...quite beautiful.


Concluding and summarizing, we can therefore say that Tradition is not the transmission of things or words, a collection of dead things. Tradition is the living river that unites us to the origins, the living river in which the origins are always present, the great river that leads us to the port of eternity. In this living river, the word of the Lord that we heard at the beginning from the lips of the reader: "And behold, I am with you always, until the eng of the age" is fulfilled again (Matthew 28:20).


Pope Benedict XVI

_________________
“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:32 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73007
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
ajw333 wrote:

IMO this particular Catholic practice appears to indicate that the expression of worship in Scripture is somehow deficient and needs to be added to.


You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it the truth. How about giving us a list of expressions of worship in Scripture. Then we can compare notes.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:59 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:31 am
Posts: 3005
Religion: Catholic
DesertSailor wrote:
Lets not forget the snake Moses made.



lets not forget the temple had engraved cherubim, trees, flowers, bronze oxen, lions, and pomegrantes (1kgs 6;23-29, 1kngs 7;25-45) you know the people in the temple were kneeling...

_________________
Image

"Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church" ~St. Ignatius (107 A.D.)

Check out my Catholic Youtube http://www.youtube.com/truthisbetter

Pray the Rosary daily for peace

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:22 pm 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
DesertSailor wrote:
We also need to remember that St. Luke painted the Black Madonna on Mary's kitchen table.

What a shocker!!! An apostle painting a picture of Jesus and Mary!!!


Where do you get this stuff? How about a link to that picture.

_________________
We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:35 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:31 am
Posts: 3005
Religion: Catholic
the Early Christians when they had to hide to do their services underground didnt they find paintings of Mary and Jesus?

_________________
Image

"Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church" ~St. Ignatius (107 A.D.)

Check out my Catholic Youtube http://www.youtube.com/truthisbetter

Pray the Rosary daily for peace

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:49 pm 
Offline
*****
*****
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:46 am
Posts: 8750
Religion: Christian
pax wrote:
David danced before the Ark which had statues of angels of it.
Why no kneeling?

DesertSailor wrote:
Lets not forget the snake Moses made.
Why no kneeling?

DesertSailor wrote:
St. Luke painted the Black Madonna on Mary's kitchen table.
Why no kneeling?

Yunwiya wrote:
lets not forget the temple had engraved cherubim, trees, flowers, bronze oxen, lions, and pomegrantes (1kgs 6;23-29, 1kngs 7;25-45) you know the people in the temple were kneeling...
Not in these references they weren't.

Sorry for being so pedantic.

_________________
"Our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love." Pope Benedict XVI


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:56 pm 
Offline
Jedi Padawan
Jedi Padawan
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:55 pm
Posts: 5851
Location: A district of well-ordered business
Religion: Roman Catholic
That's probably not the best word for it. Obtuse, more like.
There's this, to which you should probably respond:
De Maria wrote:
If I interpret that correctly, Solomon was kneeling before the ALTAR, an unhewn rock which symbolized God.

1 Kings 8:54
And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven.

And here is kneeling before the congregation:
2 Chronicles 6:13
For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven.

Was he wrong? Or do you think he knew that he wasn't worshipping a rock nor the congregation?


Furthermore, your contention that Catholics found the worship extant in Scripture to be deficient is unsupported and ill-made. Need something be deficient for it to be added to? I might have an already lovely vase I've made, to which I add a coat of paint. There was nothing wrong or deficient in it at all; it has been naturally embellished through the application of human art and sub-creativity. Arguing that we added things, then, because we thought something was lacking simply doesn't follow. One also must ask why the Temple and the Ark would have been embellished similarly with human art.

This is the sort of question you have to start answering. The recurrent litany of "Were they kneeling? Were they kneeling? Were they kneeling?" is both childish and obfuscatory. There are deeper issues at stake which you have yet to address.

_________________
"Beati estis cum maledixerint vobis et persecuti vos fuerint et dixerint omne malum adversum vos, mentientes, propter me. Gaudete et exsultate, quoniam merces vestra copiosa est in caelis; sic enim persecuti sunt prophetas, qui fuerunt ante vos." Mt. V. xi-xii


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:21 am 
Offline
*****
*****
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:46 am
Posts: 8750
Religion: Christian
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
That's probably not the best word for it. Obtuse, more like.
There's this, to which you should probably respond:
De Maria wrote:
If I interpret that correctly, Solomon was kneeling before the ALTAR, an unhewn rock which symbolized God.

1 Kings 8:54
And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven.

And here is kneeling before the congregation:
2 Chronicles 6:13
For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven.

Was he wrong? Or do you think he knew that he wasn't worshipping a rock nor the congregation?
Solomon was kneeling before the altar and in todays world that would be equivalent to kneeling before the cross which would be very appropriate as it is acknowledging the Lord's sacrifice for us. This does not mean that we should kneel before a statue of a human being, for this there is no OT equivalent.

Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Furthermore, your contention that Catholics found the worship extant in Scripture to be deficient is unsupported and ill-made. Need something be deficient for it to be added to? I might have an already lovely vase I've made, to which I add a coat of paint. There was nothing wrong or deficient in it at all; it has been naturally embellished through the application of human art and sub-creativity.
In other words, you improved it from what it was to something better. If it was perfect, why would you change it? Can you imagine what would happen if someone thought the Mona Lisa needed a few embellishments?

Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Arguing that we added things, then, because we thought something was lacking simply doesn't follow. One also must ask why the Temple and the Ark would have been embellished similarly with human art.
Wasn't every detail of the Ark specifically laid out by God? I would say the art work was His.

_________________
"Our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love." Pope Benedict XVI


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:40 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:31 am
Posts: 3005
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
Not in these references they weren't.

Sorry for being so pedantic.


are you saying nobody in that temple kneeled and prayed?

_________________
Image

"Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church" ~St. Ignatius (107 A.D.)

Check out my Catholic Youtube http://www.youtube.com/truthisbetter

Pray the Rosary daily for peace

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:51 am 
Offline
Ancient Mariner
Ancient Mariner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:04 pm
Posts: 16966
Location: If I'm not there I must be here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Honorary Member 3rd degree KC
pax wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
We also need to remember that St. Luke painted the Black Madonna on Mary's kitchen table.

What a shocker!!! An apostle painting a picture of Jesus and Mary!!!


Where do you get this stuff? How about a link to that picture.

http://www.franciscancaring.org/blackma ... rward.html

Here's the link and the story.


I don't make stuff up.

_________________
The Gate of Heaven is the Door of the Confessional.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:18 am 
Offline
Ancient Mariner
Ancient Mariner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:04 pm
Posts: 16966
Location: If I'm not there I must be here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Honorary Member 3rd degree KC
Did anyone notice ajw started asking about art in the early church and then when we showed him he was wrong all the sudden he back to kneeling?
Really sneaky, ajw. But then again you'll do anything to avoid the truth.

_________________
The Gate of Heaven is the Door of the Confessional.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:21 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:31 am
Posts: 3005
Religion: Catholic
DesertSailor wrote:
Did anyone notice ajw started asking about art in the early church and then when we showed him he was wrong all the sudden he back to kneeling?
Really sneaky, ajw. But then again you'll do anything to avoid the truth.


most of the protastants here do that...

when confronted they devert the attention off of them and move to something else...or ignore it all together...
to me it is the lazy way out...a poor tatic IMO

_________________
Image

"Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church" ~St. Ignatius (107 A.D.)

Check out my Catholic Youtube http://www.youtube.com/truthisbetter

Pray the Rosary daily for peace

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:25 am 
Offline
Ancient Mariner
Ancient Mariner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:04 pm
Posts: 16966
Location: If I'm not there I must be here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Honorary Member 3rd degree KC
Yunwiya wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Did anyone notice ajw started asking about art in the early church and then when we showed him he was wrong all the sudden he back to kneeling?
Really sneaky, ajw. But then again you'll do anything to avoid the truth.


most of the protastants here do that...

when confronted they devert the attention off of them and move to something else...or ignore it all together...
to me it is the lazy way out...a poor tatic IMO

It drives me crazy too. They will do anything to avoid the truth.

_________________
The Gate of Heaven is the Door of the Confessional.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:28 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:31 am
Posts: 3005
Religion: Catholic
DesertSailor wrote:
Yunwiya wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Did anyone notice ajw started asking about art in the early church and then when we showed him he was wrong all the sudden he back to kneeling?
Really sneaky, ajw. But then again you'll do anything to avoid the truth.


most of the protastants here do that...

when confronted they devert the attention off of them and move to something else...or ignore it all together...
to me it is the lazy way out...a poor tatic IMO

It drives me crazy too. They will do anything to avoid the truth.


makes me wonder why they even bother coming here?

i know some protestants here are good and want the truth...but most of them...are not here for truth at all...

_________________
Image

"Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church" ~St. Ignatius (107 A.D.)

Check out my Catholic Youtube http://www.youtube.com/truthisbetter

Pray the Rosary daily for peace

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 74 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


Jump to: