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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:51 am 
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I think it's ludicrous for AJW to insinuate that the Holy Spirit cannot move someone to create artwork that brings to mind the glory of God.

ETA: Actually, that is what he is saying...no insinuating to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:18 am 
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ajw333 wrote:
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
That's probably not the best word for it. Obtuse, more like.
There's this, to which you should probably respond:
De Maria wrote:
If I interpret that correctly, Solomon was kneeling before the ALTAR, an unhewn rock which symbolized God.

1 Kings 8:54
And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven.

And here is kneeling before the congregation:
2 Chronicles 6:13
For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven.

Was he wrong? Or do you think he knew that he wasn't worshipping a rock nor the congregation?
Solomon was kneeling before the altar and in todays world that would be equivalent to kneeling before the cross which would be very appropriate as it is acknowledging the Lord's sacrifice for us. This does not mean that we should kneel before a statue of a human being, for this there is no OT equivalent.


State Scriptural evidence to support your equivalence. And what of kneeling before a living human being?

ajw333 wrote:
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Furthermore, your contention that Catholics found the worship extant in Scripture to be deficient is unsupported and ill-made. Need something be deficient for it to be added to? I might have an already lovely vase I've made, to which I add a coat of paint. There was nothing wrong or deficient in it at all; it has been naturally embellished through the application of human art and sub-creativity.
In other words, you improved it from what it was to something better. If it was perfect, why would you change it? Can you imagine what would happen if someone thought the Mona Lisa needed a few embellishments?


Terrible example. I think la Gioconda is a terribly dull painting. As to improving it, or making it better, that does not follow either. The painted vase is not really better than the unpainted one; they both perform their functions equally well. What the distinctive element of Catholic worship adds in this regard is entirely within precedent. I would imagine you find it quite all right for Christians to pray for each other? That's what we're doing. Asking the saints to pray for us, beseeching them to join their prayers to ours.

Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Arguing that we added things, then, because we thought something was lacking simply doesn't follow. One also must ask why the Temple and the Ark would have been embellished similarly with human art.
Wasn't every detail of the Ark specifically laid out by God? I would say the art work was His.[/quote]

So He left instructions that detailed, did He? "Make this cherub so many centimeters high, have the wings flare out like so, make its hair this color, have its hands clasped in this posture, make it wear this kind of robe...." That's interesting, of course, because no description of the Ark is given with that much detail in the Bible. It'd be bad if something like that had been left out, wouldn't it? Or, if Exodus 25:10-21 is all God had to say on the production and ornamentation of the Ark, doesn't it stand to reason that He did, indeed, leave something up to human sub-creativity and art?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:36 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
I think it's ludicrous for AJW to insinuate that the Holy Spirit cannot move someone to create artwork that brings to mind the glory of God.

ETA: Actually, that is what he is saying...no insinuating to it.

Let me clarify then. I love divinely inspired art as I do divinely inspired music. The Holy Spirit does give people wonderful gifts in order to create beautiful things that reflect His glory. One such person was Bezalel. Exodus 31:1 "The Lord said to Moses, “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze, in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, to work in every craft."

The discussion seems to have muddied what I wish to communicate. If that is my fault, apologies. I will now summarize my position. There are many and varied ways to express worship to God. My preference is to follow Biblical examples as best as I can. I think that getting on your knees before the Lord is a good thing and practise it myself. Such an expression of worship must be a freewill submission to God and not something enforced by religious leaders. I do not think that bowing or kneeling before a statue is Biblical, nor appropriate. As God is standing right in front of us, there is no need to rely on a man made image to connect us to Him in prayer. We see God through the eyes of faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:43 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
Protestant is not a religion.


Not for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:26 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Why no standing at the reading of the Gospels?


Before I was Catholic, I attended more than one congregations where it was the custom to stand when the preacher read the text from which he would be preaching.

When I was younger, kneeling at the pew (back turned to the "podium", facing the pew) was normal in many services.

Not all protestants have lost the memory of proper postures - just those who come here it seems :?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:28 pm 
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Ajw -

Do you stand when the National Anthem is played at the ballgame? Do you place your hand over your heart when you pledge to the flag?

Do you stand when a judge enters the courtroom?

When a lady enters or leaves the table or room?

How about when the bride walks down the isle at a wedding?

When you meet the Queen of England, would you bow?

If you have respect for these earthly things, how much more respect should you show for the things of God?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:46 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Why no standing at the reading of the Gospels?


Before I was Catholic, I attended more than one congregations where it was the custom to stand when the preacher read the text from which he would be preaching.

When I was younger, kneeling at the pew (back turned to the "podium", facing the pew) was normal in many services.

Not all protestants have lost the memory of proper postures - just those who come here it seems :?
Why are people so unkind :crying:

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:49 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:51 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Ajw -

Do you stand when the National Anthem is played at the ballgame? Do you place your hand over your heart when you pledge to the flag?
No, I'm not American
Quote:
Do you stand when a judge enters the courtroom?
Never been in one.
Quote:
When a lady enters or leaves the table or room?
Call me a Philistine but generally not.
Quote:
How about when the bride walks down the isle at a wedding?
Absolutely
Quote:
When you meet the Queen of England, would you bow?
Regrettably yes.

Quote:
If you have respect for these earthly things, how much more respect should you show for the things of God?
Apparently I didn't score too well in the survey, so I must be a disrespector of God also.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:56 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
Ajw -

Do you stand when the National Anthem is played at the ballgame? Do you place your hand over your heart when you pledge to the flag?
No, I'm not American
Quote:
Do you stand when a judge enters the courtroom?
Never been in one.
Quote:
When a lady enters or leaves the table or room?
Call me a Philistine but generally not.
Quote:
How about when the bride walks down the isle at a wedding?
Absolutely
Quote:
When you meet the Queen of England, would you bow?
Regrettably yes.

Quote:
If you have respect for these earthly things, how much more respect should you show for the things of God?
Apparently I didn't score too well in the survey, so I must be a disrespector of God also.



For if you do not respect your brethren whom you do see, how will you respect God who you do not see?

I agree.

You are a disrespector of God, and His Blessed Mother, and His Holy Bride.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:27 pm 
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pax wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
Ajw -

Do you stand when the National Anthem is played at the ballgame? Do you place your hand over your heart when you pledge to the flag?
No, I'm not American
Quote:
Do you stand when a judge enters the courtroom?
Never been in one.
Quote:
When a lady enters or leaves the table or room?
Call me a Philistine but generally not.
Quote:
How about when the bride walks down the isle at a wedding?
Absolutely
Quote:
When you meet the Queen of England, would you bow?
Regrettably yes.

Quote:
If you have respect for these earthly things, how much more respect should you show for the things of God?
Apparently I didn't score too well in the survey, so I must be a disrespector of God also.



For if you do not respect your brethren whom you do see, how will you respect God who you do not see?

I agree.

You are a disrespector of God, and His Blessed Mother, and His Holy Bride.

Boy, that'll teach me for being facetious.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:04 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
pax wrote:
David danced before the Ark which had statues of angels of it.
Why no kneeling?

DesertSailor wrote:
Lets not forget the snake Moses made.
Why no kneeling?

DesertSailor wrote:
St. Luke painted the Black Madonna on Mary's kitchen table.
Why no kneeling?


Romans 4:11 For it is written: As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:



My question for you specifically -

Why no kneeling?

Even Christ kneeled down when He prayed. (Luke 22)

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 am 
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MyDogma8MyKarma wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
pax wrote:
David danced before the Ark which had statues of angels of it.
Why no kneeling?

DesertSailor wrote:
Lets not forget the snake Moses made.
Why no kneeling?

DesertSailor wrote:
St. Luke painted the Black Madonna on Mary's kitchen table.
Why no kneeling?


Romans 4:11 For it is written: As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:



My question for you specifically -

Why no kneeling?

Even Christ kneeled down when He prayed. (Luke 22)

This is a fair question and one that does highlight the lack of outwardly expressed reverence in protestant churches. I am currently in a Pentecostal church which is about as far from Catholic as you can get. It isn't all bad though. There are times when some people kneel down on both knees with their face to the ground in worship during the service.

My observation is that many non Catholics love the Lord every bit as much as anyone else but they've never been instructed to express reverence in an outward fashion. I don't think this has served them particularly well as there does seem to be a distinct lack of reverential fear of the Lord in Pentecostalism.

I have read of cases where the Holy Spirit has manifested in a meeting and flattened everyone, I guess it will take something of that order to bow the members of my congregation. You can be sure that I will pray for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:04 am 
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Thank you for that honest reply.

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