Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 19 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:39 pm 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 1631
Location: Wisconsin
Religion: Roman Catholic
Matt Frad’s YouTube channel reposted the Pat Madrid vs James White debate.
Matt is of the opinion that Madrid did the best against White.

When I was slowly reverting back to Catholicism I watched a few debates between White and various Catholics.

I remember not being impressed with many of the Catholic debate opponents.
White was so aggressive and he just kept the Catholic debater on the defensive.

It wasn’t until I saw his debate with Sungenis That I finally saw a Catholic put white back on the defensive. Sungenis also had a level of confidence that I didn’t see another Catholics when they debated James White.

Many scoff at the mention of Sungenis’ name. I don’t get too hung up on that. I still think he did the best against White.

_________________
For who we are and what we'll be/ I'll sing your praise eternally/ the miles we've shared I'd trade but few/ they're the ones that kept me away from you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:03 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:40 am
Posts: 8525
Location: Tennessee
Religion: Catholic
Sungenis has some great material in many of his books. I have no real answer on 'debates' as I haven't watched any.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:26 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:20 pm
Posts: 46
Religion: Catholic
Being Catholic is like being in-love you just know it.

I can reduce all my faith to just Jesus and Mary like Joan of Arc.

Image

What else did she need?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:33 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76436
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
I won't go so far as to say that debates are completely useless in determining truth, but I will say they are of very limited value.

James White "argues" for his position in the same way politicians Ike Al Gore or Joe Biden "argue": by hurling invective, constantly being on the attack, constantly interrupting, never allowing his opponent to speak and then when he does speak, completely ignoring the points made by his opponent. If you want to call that "winning", by all means, do so. But the older I get the more I think it's better to discuss agreements and disagreements in a way that doesn't require than anyone win or lose.


Last edited by Doom on Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:40 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:47 am
Posts: 15435
Religion: Catholic (SSPX)
Doom is right ---- and something must be fishy because i find myself agreeing all the time with what I see him post here... :)

James White is a seasoned and experienced debator. Whatever position he takes is fairly irrelevant, as someone can manage a debate on skill alone. "Winning" a debate sure as heck doesn't mean that your position is right, correct, or even truthful. That's why it was, IMO, just folly for these armchair apologists to engage him live. The vast majority of apologists simply do better behind their computer with the ability to take time to reference materials and craft well reasoned responses, while also being able to avoid the normal interruptions that inevitably occur in a hotly contested live debate.

As for Bob Sungenis ... his "Not By..." series were very, very good. He was doing really good work back then, and the fact that he embraced geocentrism later, while unfortunate since it undermines his credibility at the very least, does not at all detract from that really good stuff he wrote prior to going off the cliff.

All that aside, I don't even know who all debated James White (other than Pat Madrid), and I really don't even care. Since those debates happened, there has been quite a bit of change with the Church.

I can only imagine what James White would have done with Amoris laetitia....

EDIT: Oh, nevermind.. I just saw James White is still alive. I thought he was dead, but I guess it's just Jack Chick that's dead.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:38 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:20 pm
Posts: 46
Religion: Catholic
All you do is go outside the bible to the Shroud and Turin then you know which religion Jesus was.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:00 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76436
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
tAnGo wrote:
Doom is right ---- and something must be fishy because i find myself agreeing all the time with what I see him post here... :)

James White is a seasoned and experienced debator. Whatever position he takes is fairly irrelevant, as someone can manage a debate on skill alone. "Winning" a debate sure as heck doesn't mean that your position is right, correct, or even truthful. That's why it was, IMO, just folly for these armchair apologists to engage him live. The vast majority of apologists simply do better behind their computer with the ability to take time to reference materials and craft well reasoned responses, while also being able to avoid the normal interruptions that inevitably occur in a hotly contested live debate.

As for Bob Sungenis ... his "Not By..." series were very, very good. He was doing really good work back then, and the fact that he embraced geocentrism later, while unfortunate since it undermines his credibility at the very least, does not at all detract from that really good stuff he wrote prior to going off the cliff.

All that aside, I don't even know who all debated James White (other than Pat Madrid), and I really don't even care. Since those debates happened, there has been quite a bit of change with the Church.

I can only imagine what James White would have done with Amoris laetitia....

EDIT: Oh, nevermind.. I just saw James White is still alive. I thought he was dead, but I guess it's just Jack Chick that's dead.


There's a really good analogy for skill in debates not being related to having the stronger position. Imagine you encounter a very rich man say Bill Gates or Warren Buffet and ask how much money he has in his wallet. I seriously doubt these kind of people carry around big wads of cash everywhere they go. If you saw them pull out their wallet it would probably be filled with their photo ID other forms of identification and may be at most a couple $100 bills. In fact it is not unlikely that you or someone you know carries around more cash in his wallet than someone like Gates or Buffet. Does that mean that Gates and Buffet are not rich? Of course not very rich people do not have their money with them everywhere they go their money is in the bank it's tied up in investments they may not be able to directly access it but you know that if you give them a couple days They will be able to with draw millions or billions of dollars in cash Don't make the mistake of confusing the amount of money you have in your wallet with your total net worth. In fact the richer someone is the more difficult it's going to be for him to just pull out a wad of cash at random. If you meet somebody who's carrying around a few $1000 in his wallet that's probably all the money he has in the world.

In the same way people who have great knowledge of a particular subject are not necessarily going to be able to spontaneously recall every detail in the middle of a debate when you got some guy screaming at you and asking you questions that you're not really sure how to answer.

Just give this guy a few days and he can write-up a response that would absolutely devastate his opponent. Just because someone's not able to win a debate doesn't mean that hes not the more intelligent and more informed person would the stronger position.

Just like the rich man very intelligent people are actually going to find a very difficult to just spontaneously recite knowledge off the top of their head without giving their answer a little thought and may be doing a little research.

Don't make the mistake of confusing someone who's not great at debate with someone who's not very intelligent or doesn't have a very strong position. The ability to be able to spontaneously think of a quick zinger is not actually a sign ov great knowledge or intelligence.

About Bob Sungenis, the first two books are excellent but they are also collaborative, Sungenis is merely one of several authors who contributed to it.

The book "Not Ny Bread Alone" which is about the doctrine of the Eucharist was the first one that was solely by Sungenis, and it ls awful.

It devotes well over half the text to arguing for completely irrelevant positions such as Geocentrism and a rather bizarre, convoluted attack on The Theory of Relativity, because he somehow thinks that
Einstein's theory contradicts transubstantiation. I'm far from sure why he thinks this. The theory of relativity has been around for more than a century and Catholic theologians have seen no problem with it from a theological perspective.

I remember being so excited that Sungenis was going to publish a book about the Eucharist that I pre ordered it months in advance and even got a signed copy. And I was extremely disappointed when I got to the part where he argues against modern scientific theories.

I still remember the part where I gave up on the book and put it aside and have never opened it again 20 years later. In it he asserts that tensor analysis, which is the foundation of the mathematics of relativity "is so complicated that no one can understand it." That was an assertion that hit fairly close to home. He even misinterprets a facetious comment by Einstein who once joked that after relativity theory had been expressed in terms of tesor analysis by his friend Hermann Weyl that "I can no longer understand my own theory."

I will grant that tensor analysis's is not easy to understand it's very advanced mathematics and you need to have a fairly sophisticated background in mathematics to make any sense of it but the grandiose assertion that it is do complicated no one can possibly understand it is so bizarre I don't even know how to respond to it even 20 years later.


Last edited by Doom on Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:06 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:47 am
Posts: 15435
Religion: Catholic (SSPX)
it's actually funny.... i think 'bread alone' was the only one in that series i simply never got around to trying.
i can't even find my copies of 'faith alone' and 'scripture alone', which i thought were outstanding..

..but like doom says, yeah, that was 20 years ago..

Karl Keating's 'catholicism and fundamentalism' was, if my memory serves, one of my favorite apologetics books. but in the many years following that book, i think keating started turning a little bit left? (not to the extent of sungenis).

anyway, i don't want to detract from the topic.

Did Keating ever debate White? I don't remember for sure, but I thought most of the heavyweight Catholic apologists from 20 years ago did. If Keating debated White, it wouldn't surprise me at all if White 'won' the debate... but for anybody who reads Keating's 'catholicism and fundamentalism' would understand that keating (at least back then) was very strong in apologetics.

It also would underscore doom's point that taking time to research and address issues simply isn't the same as trying to respond in real time to rapid-fire 'gotcha' questions, especially when a real and complete answer to the question would take waaaaaay too long to spell out in the allotted time.

Again, just because someone 'wins' a debate doesn't mean that the position they've taken is correct or true... and just because you 'lose' the debate doesn't mean that the position you've taken is wrong or false.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:29 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83462
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Debate teams are given the side of the argument they are to take.

Scripture Alone was a big help to me.

I don't recall a leftward turn by Keating, unless perhaps he took some positions just because Sungenis took the opposite.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:24 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76436
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Debate teams are given the side of the argument they are to take.

Scripture Alone was a big help to me.

I don't recall a leftward turn by Keating, unless perhaps he took some positions just because Sungenis took the opposite.


I don't know what Tango means by "leftward turn"....that's definitely not true politically, politically Keating is definitely on the right. On Facebook and Twitter he's been posting lot of attacks on the ideology of Black Lives Matter movement.


I've come to think of Keating as being almost a Catholic James White, while at one time I liked "Catholicism and Fundamentalism", I now consider it a fairly weak book, although granted it is intended for a general audience and is not a serious work of theology or apologetics.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:22 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6246
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
brian100 wrote:
I can reduce all my faith to just Jesus and Mary like Joan of Arc.

What else did she need?
The Father? The Holy Spirit?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:24 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6246
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
tAnGo wrote:
James White is a seasoned and experienced debator.
I think we should just say it like it is: he's nothing more than a sophist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:33 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6246
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
tAnGo wrote:
..but like doom says, yeah, that was 20 years ago..
Sungenis is still a geocentrist. He published a documentary about it in 2014, alongside Rick DeLano. The people they interviewed, as well as the narrator, say that they were misled on what the so-called documentary was about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Principle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:29 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76436
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Closet Catholic wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
..but like doom says, yeah, that was 20 years ago..
Sungenis is still a geocentrist. He published a documentary about it in 2014, alongside Rick DeLano. The people they interviewed, as well as the narrator, say that they were misled on what the so-called documentary was about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Principle


I haven't seen, and will never see, this movie, but how could the narrator, of all people, not know what the documentary is about?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:12 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:47 am
Posts: 15435
Religion: Catholic (SSPX)
Closet Catholic wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
..but like doom says, yeah, that was 20 years ago..
Sungenis is still a geocentrist. He published a documentary about it in 2014, alongside Rick DeLano. The people they interviewed, as well as the narrator, say that they were misled on what the so-called documentary was about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Principle


I was talking about BEFORE he was a geocentrist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:15 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:47 am
Posts: 15435
Religion: Catholic (SSPX)
Doom wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Debate teams are given the side of the argument they are to take.

Scripture Alone was a big help to me.

I don't recall a leftward turn by Keating, unless perhaps he took some positions just because Sungenis took the opposite.


I don't know what Tango means by "leftward turn"....that's definitely not true politically, politically Keating is definitely on the right. On Facebook and Twitter he's been posting lot of attacks on the ideology of Black Lives Matter movement.


I've come to think of Keating as being almost a Catholic James White, while at one time I liked "Catholicism and Fundamentalism", I now consider it a fairly weak book, although granted it is intended for a general audience and is not a serious work of theology or apologetics.


didn't mean to imply had had turned politically left (or theologically left)...
I was trying to remember if he had started to go a bit wonky on the catholic answers forum.. i don't remember any specifics. it's been too long now.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:17 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:47 am
Posts: 15435
Religion: Catholic (SSPX)
Closet Catholic wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
James White is a seasoned and experienced debator.
I think we should just say it like it is: he's nothing more than a sophist.


why the ad hom?
i don't like the guy myself, but it's just being honest to say he's a more than proficient debator.

to debate james white on the topic of religion, it's not really enough to know your catechism and the Faith.... one needs to know how to debate what one knows.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:50 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6246
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
tAnGo wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
..but like doom says, yeah, that was 20 years ago..
Sungenis is still a geocentrist. He published a documentary about it in 2014, alongside Rick DeLano. The people they interviewed, as well as the narrator, say that they were misled on what the so-called documentary was about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Principle


I was talking about BEFORE he was a geocentrist.
No, the book you were referencing taught geocentrism.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What Catholic did the best debating White?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:51 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6246
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
tAnGo wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
James White is a seasoned and experienced debator.
I think we should just say it like it is: he's nothing more than a sophist.


why the ad hom?
It's not an ad hominem to point out that his debating technique is just pure sophistry.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 19 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Jump to: