Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Page 1 of 5   [ 95 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:49 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:38 pm
Posts: 838
Religion: Roman Catholic
There is a passage in (I believe) the gospel of John that says something to the effect of: If everything Jesus said and did were written down, all the books in the world could not contain it all.

well, that psg alone would seem to demolish sola scriptura. But of course there are plenty of others.

here is another big truth that demolishes it:

scripture alone? that would mean that all Christians before AD 1440 when the printing press was invented (and Bibles began to become available to all) would have to go by the OLD Testament scriptura, the only "scriptura" available to most Christians. In fact even the Old T wasn't available to most Christians (just Churches, and only the priest read from it, usually. I hear Bibles were so expensive they had to be chained to the podium to discourage theft). So essentially you have the first centuries of Christianity with no scriptura (no New T) at all.. which of course means: no Jesus, to speak of

We cannot get impatient with Protestants over these things because most of them don't study Christianity deeply, history thereof. What gets me is people like James White who knows quite a bit but (last i heard) still rejects catholicism..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ...
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:56 pm 
Offline
Majesty
Majesty
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2003 7:00 pm
Posts: 10744
Location: Austin metro area TX
Perhaps the bigger picture is to have many Protestants and members of my 4th Group accept the Idea that Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition has their place. My guess is that a combination of all known and respected Books (Scrolls) known to Protestants, Catholics and Orthodoxy would be a wise move for starters. All non-Catholic and non-Orthodoxy groups have already used and will continue to use forms of sacred tradition -- admitting this is another wise move for starters. From there...we can discuss this further.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:59 am 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73176
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Hi Roland! :wave

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:44 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6158
Religion: Christian
flyingaway wrote:
There is a passage in (I believe) the gospel of John that says something to the effect of: If everything Jesus said and did were written down, all the books in the world could not contain it all.

well, that psg alone would seem to demolish sola scriptura. But of course there are plenty of others.

here is another big truth that demolishes it:

scripture alone? that would mean that all Christians before AD 1440 when the printing press was invented (and Bibles began to become available to all) would have to go by the OLD Testament scriptura, the only "scriptura" available to most Christians. In fact even the Old T wasn't available to most Christians (just Churches, and only the priest read from it, usually. I hear Bibles were so expensive they had to be chained to the podium to discourage theft). So essentially you have the first centuries of Christianity with no scriptura (no New T) at all.. which of course means: no Jesus, to speak of

We cannot get impatient with Protestants over these things because most of them don't study Christianity deeply, history thereof. What gets me is people like James White who knows quite a bit but (last i heard) still rejects catholicism..



"The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture."

“The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.” —Westminster Confession of Faith

"There are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary. Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture (2 Peter 1:3)."

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-does ... tura-mean/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:03 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 380
Religion: Looking for answers
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
There is a passage in (I believe) the gospel of John that says something to the effect of: If everything Jesus said and did were written down, all the books in the world could not contain it all.

well, that psg alone would seem to demolish sola scriptura. But of course there are plenty of others.

here is another big truth that demolishes it:

scripture alone? that would mean that all Christians before AD 1440 when the printing press was invented (and Bibles began to become available to all) would have to go by the OLD Testament scriptura, the only "scriptura" available to most Christians. In fact even the Old T wasn't available to most Christians (just Churches, and only the priest read from it, usually. I hear Bibles were so expensive they had to be chained to the podium to discourage theft). So essentially you have the first centuries of Christianity with no scriptura (no New T) at all.. which of course means: no Jesus, to speak of

We cannot get impatient with Protestants over these things because most of them don't study Christianity deeply, history thereof. What gets me is people like James White who knows quite a bit but (last i heard) still rejects catholicism..



"The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture."

“The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.” —Westminster Confession of Faith

"There are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary. Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture (2 Peter 1:3)."

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-does ... tura-mean/

How do you know or where do you get the belief that "all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture"?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 7:19 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6158
Religion: Christian
Denise Dee wrote:


How do you know or where do you get the belief that "all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture"?


Paul the Apostle to...

2 Timothy
…15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work...


Last edited by EtcumSpiri22-0 on Sun May 19, 2019 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 7:23 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76004
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
I suspect that the real problem is that you are combating a straw man.

Remember Doom's Law #1: Whenever you are reading a description of what someone else supposedly believes, and it seems transparently stupid or ridiculous, then the views in question are probably being distorted.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 9:19 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8658
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
To the op: It's always hard to convince any person that their worldview is illogical.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:01 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 80697
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
https://youtu.be/low6Coqrw9Y


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 4:49 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:38 pm
Posts: 838
Religion: Roman Catholic
all scripture is useful does not translate into

all that is needed is scripture

in one book (St John?) it says that if all Jesus said and did were written down.. the world could not hold all the books or something like that

and the first books of the New T were not written until 70-100 yrs after the Apostles died. So everything that eventually was written down was written from memory.. commonly called Tradition

then there is the fact that it was through preaching, and not the written word, that the Word was spread throughout the world.. There was no mass production of Bibles until the printing press was invented in 1440 and even then.. as you know, there were no airplanes or cars in those days.. things were mighty slow


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 3:21 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6158
Religion: Christian
flyingaway wrote:

all scripture is useful does not translate into

all that is needed is scripture


In the above quote, Paul the Apostle answers your specific concern by providing a checklist of applications for which scripture is useful. He then assures Timothy that diligence in applying scripture is sufficient to make him, or anyone, complete/ fully equipped.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 3:44 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76004
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
flyingaway wrote:

all scripture is useful does not translate into

all that is needed is scripture


In the above quote, Paul the Apostle answers your specific concern by providing a checklist of applications for which scripture is useful. He then assures Timothy that diligence in applying scripture is sufficient to make him, or anyone, complete/ fully equipped.



Paul never uses the word 'sufficient'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:44 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6158
Religion: Christian
Doom wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
flyingaway wrote:

all scripture is useful does not translate into

all that is needed is scripture


In the above quote, Paul the Apostle answers your specific concern by providing a checklist of applications for which scripture is useful. He then assures Timothy that diligence in applying scripture is sufficient to make him, or anyone, complete/ fully equipped.



Paul never uses the word 'sufficient'


He didnt use the word "assures" or the word "diligence" or "in" or "that" either.

I wasnt quoting. I was explaining.

I could have used lots of different words / phrases/ sentences in explanation.

Ex:
If (A) then (B)
or...
(A) = (B)

(A) = All Scripture is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness

(B) = so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work

Or I could have said:

Paul starts by affirming ...
In speaking to Timothy he says
You have a good grasp of Scripture...
Scripture describes salvation and you have a firm grasp of that
But wait, theres more... ;)
Additionally, going forward...
Treat Scripture like a training manual in every key area.
Follow the instructions and you will be complete.

Or:

Personally, I read what Paul said and it requires no explanation or clarification. Its not complicated.

…15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ...
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:08 pm 
Offline
Paladin
Paladin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:12 am
Posts: 6640
Location: Filii Tonitrui
Religion: Catholic
RolandJS wrote:
Perhaps the bigger picture is to have many Protestants and members of my 4th Group accept the Idea that Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition has their place. My guess is that a combination of all known and respected Books (Scrolls) known to Protestants, Catholics and Orthodoxy would be a wise move for starters. All non-Catholic and non-Orthodoxy groups have already used and will continue to use forms of sacred tradition -- admitting this is another wise move for starters. From there...we can discuss this further.


4th group? What is the Oriental church and Ethiopians? 5th and 6th?

_________________
-Alexander
"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:21 pm 
Offline
Paladin
Paladin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:12 am
Posts: 6640
Location: Filii Tonitrui
Religion: Catholic
flyingaway wrote:
There is a passage in (I believe) the gospel of John that says something to the effect of: If everything Jesus said and did were written down, all the books in the world could not contain it all.

well, that psg alone would seem to demolish sola scriptura. But of course there are plenty of others.

here is another big truth that demolishes it:

scripture alone? that would mean that all Christians before AD 1440 when the printing press was invented (and Bibles began to become available to all) would have to go by the OLD Testament scriptura, the only "scriptura" available to most Christians. In fact even the Old T wasn't available to most Christians (just Churches, and only the priest read from it, usually. I hear Bibles were so expensive they had to be chained to the podium to discourage theft). So essentially you have the first centuries of Christianity with no scriptura (no New T) at all.. which of course means: no Jesus, to speak of

We cannot get impatient with Protestants over these things because most of them don't study Christianity deeply, history thereof. What gets me is people like James White who knows quite a bit but (last i heard) still rejects catholicism..



What destroys Sola Scriptura is its reliance on extra-Scriptural entities to determine what is Scripture.
Or in other words, Scripture doesn't tell you what every book in a Bible should be.

E.G. The go to text mentioned above, 2 Timothy: no one can prove, using Scripture alone, that 2 Timothy should be scripture. Thus, what makes a Christian "sufficient" in the faith is also relying on an authority that tells them what Scripture is.

Also, “scripture” in the time St. Paul was writing 2 Timothy was the Old Testament and no Christian is an “old testament alone” person (although, I’ve seen crazier things…).

_________________
-Alexander
"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:19 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6158
Religion: Christian
Alexandros wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
There is a passage in (I believe) the gospel of John that says something to the effect of: If everything Jesus said and did were written down, all the books in the world could not contain it all.

well, that psg alone would seem to demolish sola scriptura. But of course there are plenty of others.

here is another big truth that demolishes it:

scripture alone? that would mean that all Christians before AD 1440 when the printing press was invented (and Bibles began to become available to all) would have to go by the OLD Testament scriptura, the only "scriptura" available to most Christians. In fact even the Old T wasn't available to most Christians (just Churches, and only the priest read from it, usually. I hear Bibles were so expensive they had to be chained to the podium to discourage theft). So essentially you have the first centuries of Christianity with no scriptura (no New T) at all.. which of course means: no Jesus, to speak of

We cannot get impatient with Protestants over these things because most of them don't study Christianity deeply, history thereof. What gets me is people like James White who knows quite a bit but (last i heard) still rejects catholicism..



What destroys Sola Scriptura is its reliance on extra-Scriptural entities to determine what is Scripture.
Or in other words, Scripture doesn't tell you what every book in a Bible should be.

E.G. The go to text mentioned above, 2 Timothy: no one can prove, using Scripture alone, that 2 Timothy should be scripture. Thus, what makes a Christian "sufficient" in the faith is also relying on an authority that tells them what Scripture is.

Also, “scripture” in the time St. Paul was writing 2 Timothy was the Old Testament and no Christian is an “old testament alone” person (although, I’ve seen crazier things…).




If you check 2 Peter 3:15,16 you will find that;
Peter said that Paul's writings are Scripture.
Based on your logic; the fact that Peter called Pauls writings Scripture... invalidates Sola Scriptura.

The fact that people recognize, codify and apply truth (any truth) does not invalidate the fact that truth stands on it's own.

Paul tells Timothy that Scripture contains truth enough; "so that the man of God may be complete".

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don ... t_1210.cfm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ...
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:08 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:38 pm
Posts: 838
Religion: Roman Catholic
RolandJS wrote:
Perhaps the bigger picture is to have many Protestants and members of my 4th Group accept the Idea that Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition has their place. My guess is that a combination of all known and respected Books (Scrolls) known to Protestants, Catholics and Orthodoxy would be a wise move for starters. All non-Catholic and non-Orthodoxy groups have already used and will continue to use forms of sacred tradition -- admitting this is another wise move for starters. From there...we can discuss this further.

so i take it you are not CAtholic?

why?

what is it you reject or dont understand? (btw I reject a few things myself, but not in the actual teachings...)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:10 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:38 pm
Posts: 838
Religion: Roman Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
flyingaway wrote:

all scripture is useful does not translate into

all that is needed is scripture


In the above quote, Paul the Apostle answers your specific concern by providing a checklist of applications for which scripture is useful. He then assures Timothy that diligence in applying scripture is sufficient to make him, or anyone, complete/ fully equipped.

i dont have my DR Bible handy but something does not sound right about hte psg in Timothy

In any case, the Church preceded the Bible by several centuries. Y do I wnat to say "enough said"?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:11 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73176
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
flyingaway is no longer a member of this board.

If anyone wants this thread unlocked, let me know.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: hard to convince protestants sola scriptura is illogical
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 11:39 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73176
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Unlocked so debate can continue.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Page 1 of 5   [ 95 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: