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 Post subject: Please help
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:59 am 
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I don’t know if you are willing or able to help but I will ask.

I am a cradle Catholic and want to be in good standing with the Church. In 2004 I made the observation
that the Magisterium had come to believe in what I believe to be a mythical “homosexual person”.

I do not judge anyone we all have the gift of freewill and will all be judged by the Lord for our lives.
However the Magisterium does not have freewill but has an obligation to the Lord to be consistent with
the Sacred Deposit of Faith.

I don’t want to get too detailed if you are unwilling to help, I will give a synopsis.

In this section of the Catechism 2357 I believe the Magisterium defines “homosexuality”:

“Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive
or predominate sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.”

I believe this defines two categories of "homosexual persons" those with an "exclusive sexual attraction toward
persons of the same sex" and those with a "predominate sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex".

I believe this is a new claim by the Magisterium circa 1997 with the new Catechism of the Catholic Church(2357).
I cannot quantify what a predominate "homosexual person" is, the exclusive "homosexual person" is clear they
are not capable of sexual attraction towards persons of the opposite sex. For the past thirteen years I have been
seeking answers for this new claim from Catholic clergy, scholars and the Magisterium most do not respond, for
those kind and reply it ultimately comes down to go away kid and don't bother me without providing a truly right
and just reason for this new claim. I believe the "homosexual person"(as defined by the Magisterium) to be a false
premise that is a stumbling block that has been laid on the path of confused individuals. I believe that accepting
this false premise of the “homosexual person” keeps souls from the Father Almighty, and causes souls to fall to
Satan. I understand that one can put a time constraint on an exclusivity the Magisterium does not in this case.
To the contrary the Magisterium accepts a new type of person the “homosexual person” (CCC 2359). My
understanding is that until this new claim the only type of persons that the Church has recognized are male and
female created by the Lord for the gift of procreation. Do you know of a truly right and just reason for this new claim?

I believe I have tried all methods available to me within the Church to have this issue addressed If nothing else I would
be interested in an objective opinion. I believe this to be an error by the Magisterium that for reason I am unaware the
Magisterium refuses to confront. This is a simple but I believe very serious error by the Magisterium whose ramification
extends much beyond human sexuality.

The most honest rationalization from the clergy I have had was a Priest who wrote:

“It is an 'earthly fact' that there are homosexual people”

I believe that this Priest is correct; unfortunately he also believes this to be true. The Magisterium at one time agree
to the “earthly fact” that the sun circled the earth in time they corrected this error. I know that in the Lord’s time He
will have this error corrected by the Magisterium. I believe the Magisterium encouraging confused individuals to
believe they are something that doesn’t exist a much more harmful error.

For over 3400 years since the earliest written recognition of the Lord by man; SSA and SS behavior have also
been recognized. The mythical “homosexual person” was accepted by the Magisterium for no good reason in 1997.

I believe the Magisterium has no authority to present what is false as true as they have here. I am just
a faithful Catholic that doesn’t understand why my Bishop and the Magisterium shun me without addressing
my concern.

I believe the fundamental issue is that this mythical "homosexual person" has been accepted as real.
SSA is real a temptation or sinful if obsessed on, SS behavior is real a sin and exclusive SSA a myth promoted
by an LGBT orthodoxy that demands total acceptance with no tolerance of differing views. Do you know how
to have the Magisterium address my concern?

I hope you can help illuminate this error by the Magisterium so they will correct this error for the Lord.

Maybe your Bishop would be willing to help pursue this for the Lord; while generous in his time my Bishop
has refused to address or pursue this issue only pointing to Church teaching that does not address my concern.

God bless and thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:48 pm 
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I have no reason to believe your intentions are anything but honorable. However, the way you’re going about requesting support is all but self-defeating. Those who know me well will be astonished at what I’m about to say (because it’s a particular weakness of my own), but your missive is so long and rambling that it’s essentially unintelligible.

As a professional writer and editor, I suggest you reread your post. Read it out loud and listen to yourself as you read. Organize your thoughts. Make your essential statement once at the beginning, and reiterate it at the end, along with a call for the desired action. Come up with no more than 3 or 4 supporting points, and place them in the middle of your statement with a logical progression connecting them. Then place your edited post below. You should get much more satisfactory results.

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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:05 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
I have no reason to believe your intentions are anything but honorable. However, the way you’re going about requesting support is all but self-defeating. Those who know me well will be astonished at what I’m about to say (because it’s a particular weakness of my own), but your missive is so long and rambling that it’s essentially unintelligible.

As a professional writer and editor, I suggest you reread your post. Read it out loud and listen to yourself as you read. Organize your thoughts. Make your essential statement once at the beginning, and reiterate it at the end, along with a call for the desired action. Come up with no more than 3 or 4 supporting points, and place them in the middle of your statement with a logical progression connecting them. Then place your edited post below. You should get much more satisfactory results.

Thank you for taking time to reply. Do you have a reason to believe any of God's children has
an exclusive SSA as the Magisterium has recently started to claim? I do not.

If you do can you share?

God bless


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:51 am 
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What’s an “exclusive SSA”? :scratch: I’ve never heard that term before.

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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:27 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
What’s an “exclusive SSA”? :scratch: I’ve never heard that term before.

I think jjr uses that term to refer to those who feel attracted to members of the same sex alone and not to the opposite sex, vis a vis those who feel attracted not only to members of the same sex but also to member(s) of the same sex.


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:00 pm 
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If Jack3 is correct in his interpretation of the question, then I’m sure there are a growing number of God’s children who believe that they have an “exclusive SSA.” The fact that they believe this is what we should be focusing on. The CCC teaches that SSA is, in and of itself, not sinful until one engages in the act. Catholics who have SSA are called to celibacy. I know of someone who lived just that life, and though it wasn’t an easy life, it was an inspirational one.

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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:25 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
What’s an “exclusive SSA”? :scratch: I’ve never heard that term before.

I'm sorry what I say is not clear for you it is not your fault it is my flaw. Thank you for
your patience.

Exclusive SSA is exclusive Same Sex Attraction. This is from the Magisterium's definition
of Homosexuality in CCC2357:

“Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an
exclusive or predominate sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.”

Do you have a reason to believe any of God's children has an exclusive SSA as the
Magisterium has recently started to claim? I do not.

If you do can you share?

God bless


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:39 am 
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I assume you are aware that not a few people claim that they are so attracted. What reason do you give for thinking that they are wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:48 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I assume you are aware that not a few people claim that they are so attracted. What reason do you give for thinking that they are wrong?

I am aware that people claim to be "homosexual persons" and chose to pursue SSA.
Of that group I am not aware of the number that claim to have exclusive SSA. People
have freewill and can claim and believe anything they would like.

I believe the Magisterium does not have freewill but an obligation to the Lord to be
in harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith. See CCC 84:

The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in
Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage]
the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the
apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining,
practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable
harmony between the bishops and the faithful.

Why does the Magisterium accept this lie of Satan and reject the teaching of St Paul in this
matter? St. Paul clearly tells us the nature of SSA in Romans 1 24-25:

Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts* for the mutual
degradation of their bodies.v 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped
the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Do you have a reason to believe any of God's children has an exclusive SSA as the
Magisterium has recently started to claim? I do not.

If you do can you share?

God bless


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:19 pm 
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I do, and I gave it, and I don't think you really answered it. There are people who say that they have such an attraction and yet do their best to live a chaste life. It doesn't matter how they got it; they say they have it, and I believe them. Do you have a reason that I should not believe them?


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I do, and I gave it, and I don't think you really answered it. There are people who say that they have such an attraction and yet do their best to live a chaste life. It doesn't matter how they got it; they say they have it, and I believe them. Do you have a reason that I should not believe them?

I am not clear on your view I agree that many people struggle with the
temptation of SSA but it does not follow that anyone has an exclusive SSA.
Is it your belief that some are incapable of OSS(Opposite Sex Attraction)?

God bless


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:38 pm 
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Again, what are you going to say to a person who does not feel attracted to the opposite sex but does feel attracted to the same sex. "You don't feel that way"? That's hardly a good response.

"Incapable" is not a good word. Because SSA is an intrinsic disorder within the person, it does follow that it is possible for the disorder to be corrected; it does not follow that the disorder does not exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Let me go all the way back to your original post:

Quote:
My understanding is that until this new claim the only type of persons that the Church has recognized are male and female created by the Lord for the gift of procreation.

This is still the case. (I don't want to get into the nuances introduced by celibate vocations because that doesn't affect the argument here. Those called to such vocations are still male and female and not some third thing.) By saying that some people experience exclusive or dominant attraction to the same sex, the Church is not saying that there are other types of people; the Church is saying that there are people who experience a grave disorder such that they are not attracted to live out the lives for which they were created. This is true for all sins, BTW--every sin draws us away from living the life to which God calls us.


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Let me go all the way back to your original post:

Quote:
My understanding is that until this new claim the only type of persons that the Church has recognized are male and female created by the Lord for the gift of procreation.

This is still the case. (I don't want to get into the nuances introduced by celibate vocations because that doesn't affect the argument here. Those called to such vocations are still male and female and not some third thing.) By saying that some people experience exclusive or dominant attraction to the same sex, the Church is not saying that there are other types of people; the Church is saying that there are people who experience a grave disorder such that they are not attracted to live out the lives for which they were created. This is true for all sins, BTW--every sin draws us away from living the life to which God calls us.

I believe it is cruel of the Magisterium to encourage people, obviously confused and
disordered, to believe they are something that does not exist IE: the mythical
"homosexual person". You said "it does follow that it is possible for the disorder to
be corrected" this may be your view but the Magisterium does not present this as
a possibility. To the contrary the Magisterium claims these poor souls have had a
"psychological genesis"(CCC2357) and the only remedy presented living a chaste
life(CCC2359) of course we should all live a chaste life; celibacy outside of marriage.
I find the use of the word genesis particularly inappropriate as in our Church genesis
is generally associated with the Lord's great gift of creation. I assure you the thought
that any of God's children has an exclusive SSA is not a creation of the Lord. It is a
lie of Satan.

What do you think St. Paul is telling us in Romans 1:18-32?

God bless


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:38 am 
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I think you are not reading the CCC correctly on this. I don't know what else to say.


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think you are not reading the CCC correctly on this. I don't know what else to say.

I believe what the CCC says on exclusive SSA is quite clear and wrong. What do you think
the CCC is saying on exclusive SSA?

Have you heard of Cardinal Marx? What I have seen in press reports is very disturbing:
( Ref: https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/ca ... osexual-un)

__________________________________________________________________________________
According to Cardinal Reinhard Marx, homosexual relationships have “worth,” a worth
that must be recognized by the Catholic Church.

“We have to respect the decisions of people,” Marx told the media last week in Dublin after
delivering a speech at Trinity College, according to a recent report in the Irish Times.

“We have to respect the decisions of people. We have to respect also, as I said in the first
synod on the family, some were shocked but I think it’s normal, you cannot say that a
relationship between a man and a man and they are faithful [that] that is nothing, that has
no worth,” he said.

Consequently, according to Marx, the Church owes homosexuals an apology for its historical
treatment of homosexuals. “As Church and society, we have to say ‘Sorry, Sorry,’” Marx said.
He added that the Church should support “regulating” homosexual partnerships. “We as church
cannot be against it.”
__________________________________________________________________________________

I believe Cardinal Marx's remarks the predictable fruit of this error by the Magisterium; accepting
the mythical “homosexual person” as real. While the official position of the Magisterium is not as
far down the path of accepting the mythical “homosexual person” as real, make no mistake the
Magisterium is on the same path as Cardinal Marx.

I have had many people rationalize their belief that the mythical "homosexual person" real and I
have had many people claim scientific proof that the mythical "homosexual person" real. None
of the so called scientific proof is verifiable. What they have not, and cannot do, is to show a
truly right and just reason to believe anyone has an exclusive SSA as claimed by the Magisterium.
Your belief appears to be rooted on faith in the testimony of clearly confused individuals. Do you
have something beyond this faith?

Cardinal Marx’s statements were made in a public forum and I have already seen people present
this as the Church’s view; while I know that this is not the case, this is the perception that has
already begun to take root. Even if the Magisterium is not yet ready to correct it’s fundamental
error of accepting the “homosexual person” as real shouldn’t they at least publicly condemn this
view presented by Cardinal Marx? Do you agree with Cardinal Marx's view?

I have spoken with a number of Priests about this issue about 20% believe that SS behavior should
be accepted presumably in "marriage". Do you agree with this view?

God bless


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:29 pm 
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I'm not one of the 20%.

I have already said, several times, what I think the CCC is saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:18 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm not one of the 20%.

I have already said, several times, what I think the CCC is saying.

Do you believe the Magisterium right to let Cardinal Marx's public statements
stand without condemnation? I do not.

God bless


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:37 am 
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I support without reservation all of the traditional moral and doctrinal teachings of the Church, and that's all I want to say on the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Please help
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:33 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I support without reservation all of the traditional moral and doctrinal teachings of the Church, and that's all I want to say on the subject.

You are free to avoid the issue.

I believe the Magisterium in this case has mistakenly put its faith in a lie of Satan
rather than the Sacred Deposit of Faith; given to us by our Lord for discernment
in such matters.

Thank you for the time you were willing to give. May the Lord's Peace be with you.

The good news is our Lord will have the Magisterium correct this error in a time and
manner as our Lord sees fit.

God bless


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