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 Post subject: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:50 pm 
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I'm reading on Luther's and Calvin's view on Justification. I've heard people say things that the Catholic view on justification is confusing.... and maybe some find it to be. But it can't be any more confusing than the acrobatics performed in Calvin and Luther saying something like (paraphrased) "yes, you are justified by faith alone. But faith alone working through love. But love isn't an integral part of justification.... it's still just faith alone. It's like the heat from the sun: you can't separate the heat from the light of the sun."

Trying to make that make sense in my mind is making my eyelid twitch. And I'm trying to be generous in actually understanding what they're saying so that I can better understand the Catholic Church's teaching.


But I was wondering if someone could help me out here: I've read that Luther and Calvin obviously think that God's grace is needed in order to have faith in God in the first place. But all of the things I've read from them just seem to have the starting point to always be "faith" (alone). Is the Protestant understanding that grace makes faith possible? Or that, there's almost a heroic act (erm, work?) on the part of the sinner to have faith in God first?

Calvin's quote "Wherefore we do not separate the whole grace of regeneration from faith, but claim the power and faculty of justifying entirely for faith, as we ought."
It sounds like (while almost tossing charitable acts completely aside) he's saying that God's grace and faith are combined, but then goes on to say that either way, faith plays the prime role. Is that 'prime role' even without God's grace first?

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:44 pm 
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There is no such thing as "the Protestant view" on this or anything else. As such, you will either need to be more specific about who you are talking about, or else more general and ask about the relationship between faith, grace, works, justification, regeneration, etc. in various streams of non-Catholic thought, particularly given this or that starting claim. You should also consider in this what various proponents say they believe and try to understand them on their own terms as well as consider what implications their positions might or might not have, whether or not that person or group has explicitly formed such a statement or not. In this latter consideration, charity and tight reasoning is of elevated importance.

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:11 am 
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Have a read of this, and then explore the URL further:

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture ... worknum=99
The Father William Most Collection
Nature of Justification


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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:08 pm 
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theJack wrote:
There is no such thing as "the Protestant view" on this or anything else. As such, you will either need to be more specific about who you are talking about, or else more general and ask about the relationship between faith, grace, works, justification, regeneration, etc. in various streams of non-Catholic thought, particularly given this or that starting claim. You should also consider in this what various proponents say they believe and try to understand them on their own terms as well as consider what implications their positions might or might not have, whether or not that person or group has explicitly formed such a statement or not. In this latter consideration, charity and tight reasoning is of elevated importance.


Thanks for the reply.
I read your linked thread as well and better understand what you're saying.

I'll be more aware of that in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:10 am 
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How close is this on what Trent is saying with justification:

The order of justification goes that we are justified first by God's grace because of Christ's death on the cross... and that justification allows the Holy Ghost to fill us with faith, hope, and charity.
By faith we can accept all of this (believing in the Father and His Son's atoning death) but we still need works in the form of faith acting through charity.

But neither faith nor charitable works precede the justification given to us by God.

Is that getting warmer?

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:19 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
I'm reading on Luther's and Calvin's view on Justification. I've heard people say things that the Catholic view on justification is confusing.... and maybe some find it to be. But it can't be any more confusing than the acrobatics performed in Calvin and Luther saying something like (paraphrased) "yes, you are justified by faith alone. But faith alone working through love. But love isn't an integral part of justification.... it's still just faith alone. It's like the heat from the sun: you can't separate the heat from the light of the sun."

Trying to make that make sense in my mind is making my eyelid twitch. And I'm trying to be generous in actually understanding what they're saying so that I can better understand the Catholic Church's teaching.


But I was wondering if someone could help me out here: I've read that Luther and Calvin obviously think that God's grace is needed in order to have faith in God in the first place. But all of the things I've read from them just seem to have the starting point to always be "faith" (alone). Is the Protestant understanding that grace makes faith possible? Or that, there's almost a heroic act (erm, work?) on the part of the sinner to have faith in God first?

Calvin's quote "Wherefore we do not separate the whole grace of regeneration from faith, but claim the power and faculty of justifying entirely for faith, as we ought."
It sounds like (while almost tossing charitable acts completely aside) he's saying that God's grace and faith are combined, but then goes on to say that either way, faith plays the prime role. Is that 'prime role' even without God's grace first?


I'd like to join in but the conversation is off limits in 101...not having crossed the Tiber... the second I start quoting the Bible some cyber nun will crack my knuckles. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:11 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
I'd like to join in but the conversation is off limits in 101...not having crossed the Tiber... the second I start quoting the Bible some cyber nun will crack my knuckles. :fyi:

I don't know. Maybe you could argue it's sort of like getting called to the witness stand, answering a few questions, then pleading the fifth, and then going back to answering questions again, and then pleading the fifth again, and so on. I mean, you can't really do that? Right? It's an all or nothing deal. I'm thinking that here we are in a Cath101 forum talking about the "Protestant" idea on a non-Catholic doctrine. So is it really off limits? You being a "Protestant" and all, just say what you want. And since you are your own pope (as is often argued around here), then you just are your own documentation, your own magisterium, right? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:33 am 
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theJack wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
I'd like to join in but the conversation is off limits in 101...not having crossed the Tiber... the second I start quoting the Bible some cyber nun will crack my knuckles. :fyi:

I don't know. Maybe you could argue it's sort of like getting called to the witness stand, answering a few questions, then pleading the fifth, and then going back to answering questions again, and then pleading the fifth again, and so on. I mean, you can't really do that? Right? It's an all or nothing deal. I'm thinking that here we are in a Cath101 forum talking about the "Protestant" idea on a non-Catholic doctrine. So is it really off limits? You being a "Protestant" and all, just say what you want. And since you are your own pope (as is often argued around here), then you just are your own documentation, your own magisterium, right? :)


:D I can't argue!

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:41 am 
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p.falk wrote:
I'm reading on Luther's and Calvin's view on Justification. I've heard people say things that the Catholic view on justification is confusing.... and maybe some find it to be. But it can't be any more confusing than the acrobatics performed in Calvin and Luther saying something like (paraphrased) "yes, you are justified by faith alone. But faith alone working through love. But love isn't an integral part of justification.... it's still just faith alone. It's like the heat from the sun: you can't separate the heat from the light of the sun."


I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.
Jer 20:9 :wink:

Paul:
1 Corinthians 13:
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Martin Luther:
Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles ... ion-faith/

BENEDICT XVI:
Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love ( Gal 5: 14).
https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict- ... 81119.html

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:47 am 
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You can request that the conversation be moved to a different section of the board. Just report any of the posts in it and tell the oppressors mods/admins.

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:27 am 
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:thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:01 pm 
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Topic moved to a more appropriate forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Topic moved to a more appropriate forum.


:thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:20 pm 
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My priest said that the best way to view the Catholic view of Justification is that Justification is via God's grace alone. It comes before both works and faith. Because of that move of justification on the Father's part the Holy Spirit then fills us with Faith, Hope, and Charity/Love.
We first respond to that Justification with our assent/acceptance (Faith), but Hope and Charity are equally important to be acted upon as well too.
Faith comes first temporally but love is first ontologically.

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:55 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Rape is certainly an evil. How is rape due to lukewarm Catholics?

Islamist terrorism is certainly an evil. How is Islamist terrorism due to lukewarm Catholics?

Racism is certainly an evil. How is racism due to lukewarm Catholics?

The Holocaust was certainly an evil. How was the Holocaust due to lukewarm Catholics?


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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:22 pm 
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That alleged quotation is usually attributed to Pope St. Pius X, not V, but I have never been able to find anything remotely approaching a primary source that attributes it to him. https://fauxtations.wordpress.com/2015/ ... st-pius-v/

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:24 pm 
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https://fauxtations.wordpress.com/2015/ ... st-pius-v/

Even though it's pretty unlikely that St. Pius V said it, there's certainly something important lurking behind the thought: just imagine the power of a billion non-lukewarm Catholics--that is, of a billion saints. It would transform the world. It's a rhetorical excess at best to say it would put an end to all the evils of the world--since it almost certainly wouldn't put an end to cancer (for one example among many)--but still.

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That alleged quotation is usually attributed to Pope St. Pius X, not V, but I have never been able to find anything remotely approaching a primary source that attributes it to him. https://fauxtations.wordpress.com/2015/ ... st-pius-v/

Not to worry--I do not in any sense agree with you. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Protestants on Faith Alone
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:29 pm 
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I should read my own doggone article. It is Pope St. Pius V who is alleged to have said it but cannot be shown to have done so.

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