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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Doom wrote:
I think the Biblical phrase 'the Lord hardened pharaoh's heart' has to be taken at face value. Not that God forced pharaoh to disbelieve against his will, but God could have given pharaoh the grace to believe, and he deliberately chose not to do that. Why did he choose not to do so? Because it gave God the opportunity to display his power to the Israelites, if pharaoh had believed Moses, there never would have been a parting of the Red Sea or the establishment of the feast of Passover.

St. Paul discusses this at length in the epistle to the Romans, even going so far as to say that God creates some vessels for dishonorable use and some for honorable use. At fact value, that sounds a lot like God deliberately damns people to hell just for giggles. That isn't quite what St. Paul meant, but if you're going to be like The Jack and go for the ostensible 'plain meaning' of the text, it seems difficult to avoid that conclusion.

Literally every single person who has ever been lost could have been saved if God had chosen to give them the grace to be saved, but he intentionally chose not to do that.
Doom is (sigh) correct. The phrasing of the last paragraph is off a little in that God does offer all adults (prescinding from the question of unbaptized persons below the age of reason) grace sufficient to bring about conversion absent a sinful inclination away from the use of that grace.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Light of the East Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:40 am
I have been trying to "fly under the radar" so to speak and avoid conflict here, since many here are long-time friends and all are good people, but since you pushed the button, I am tired of hiding. I'm praying about leaving for Holy Orthodoxy. Several of my friends have and I have come to understand the reasons why they have. If this concerns you, then your duty to me as a fellow believer is to prove to me that such doctrines as the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Merit, Indulgences, etc, existed before the lamentable schism of 1054AD.

As you apparently do not know the real teaching of the Catholic Church, it is high time to learn and believe. As the faith and mind of Christ are made clear by His institution of primacy and infallibility in faith and morals in His chosen leader St Peter and his successors, so everything that is orthodox (faithful and universal) depends on that fact. Muddying the waters by expressing dissent against this fact and Magisterial teaching, by various opinions (theological or otherwise) distorts the essence of the message.

Fr Brian Harrison:
"....many Orthodox theologians and bishops have now severely qualified or even surrendered any serious claim to infallibility on the part of their Church. Also, there is no longer any unity, any identifiable “official” position of Orthodoxy as such, in regard to unnatural methods of birth control. Some authorities continue to reprobate these practices, while others – probably the majority by now – condone them. Increasingly, Orthodox married couples are advised just to follow their own conscience on this issue.

"....in recent decades, with more extensive cultural and ecumenical contacts, and with an increasingly large and active Eastern diaspora in Western countries, Orthodoxy’s underlying vulnerability to the same liberal and secularizing tendencies in faith, morals and worship that have devastated the West is becoming more apparent. That virus – an inevitable result of breaking communion with the visible ‘Rock’ of truth and unity constituted by the See of Peter – is now inexorably prodding Orthodoxy toward doctrinal pluralism and disintegration."
http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt133.html

St. Paul says also, "through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10)." The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

Christ’s Church that teaches the angels is denigrated – a type described by Christ as a “heathen and a publican” for not listening to Christ’s Church, and a dissenter places himself above Christ while ignoring St Paul's testimony. Such is the domain of selfists, heretics and outcasts. What's genuine about that?

Thus dogmas and infallible doctrines cannot be ignored nor challenged.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Thomist wrote:
As you apparently do not know the real teaching of the Catholic Church, it is high time to learn and believe. As the faith and mind of Christ are made clear by His institution of primacy and infallibility in faith and morals in His chosen leader St Peter and his successors, so everything that is orthodox (faithful and universal) depends on that fact. Muddying the waters by expressing dissent against this fact and Magisterial teaching, by various opinions (theological or otherwise) distorts the essence of the message.

I am learning. That is why I am starting to have some serious questions. I am beginning to understand the difference between the Eastern and Western anthropological views and how they two have differing views of soteriology and eschatology. It was one thing for me to be in a kind of Roman mental ghetto without any Orthodox input, but starting with the things I learned at seminary, I have been increasingly developing questions about Western theology.

Fr Brian Harrison:
"....many Orthodox theologians and bishops have now severely qualified or even surrendered any serious claim to infallibility on the part of their Church. Also, there is no longer any unity, any identifiable “official” position of Orthodoxy as such, in regard to unnatural methods of birth control. Some authorities continue to reprobate these practices, while others – probably the majority by now – condone them. Increasingly, Orthodox married couples are advised just to follow their own conscience on this issue.

What does this have to do with the insertion of the filioque into the Creed? You mention that we are to listen to the Church, but the Church (that is, a universal and eccumenical council to decide this) was never consulted about this. Rome just did it. How do you justify that, especially monkeying with the Creed of all things.

"....in recent decades, with more extensive cultural and ecumenical contacts, and with an increasingly large and active Eastern diaspora in Western countries, Orthodoxy’s underlying vulnerability to the same liberal and secularizing tendencies in faith, morals and worship that have devastated the West is becoming more apparent. That virus – an inevitable result of breaking communion with the visible ‘Rock’ of truth and unity constituted by the See of Peter – is now inexorably prodding Orthodoxy toward doctrinal pluralism and disintegration."
http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt133.html

This sounds like an attack on Orthodoxy based on moral degeneration of the Orthodox Church and her members. Now.....do you really want to go down that path?

St. Paul says also, "through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10)." The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

Which leads to another thing I am pondering - is the Church really divided? David Bentley Hart wrote an interesting article called The Myth of Schism. When I look at both Churches, I see the same Sacraments, the same apostolic succession, both have a number of saints, holy men and women, and incorruptibles. Both have miraculous events from the Holy Virgin Mary. It makes me wonder if the Church really isn't still one and there are just points of heterodoxy which separate us. That's another thing I am pondering.

Christ’s Church that teaches the angels is denigrated – a type described by Christ as a “heathen and a publican” for not listening to Christ’s Church, and a dissenter places himself above Christ while ignoring St Paul's testimony. Such is the domain of selfists, heretics and outcasts. What's genuine about that?

And as I said, Rome didn't listen to the Church or even consult the Church in regards to changing the Creed? Does that apply also?

Thus dogmas and infallible doctrines cannot be ignored nor challenged.

Which again I also find interesting t consider when the Church approved a dogma which even a doctor of the Church denied. It is also interesting that the Eastern Churches who are in communion with Rome are not required to adhere to the Roman Catechism. The Ukrainian Catholic Church has its own book, and in checking some things, I note that certain dogmas of Rome are conspicuously absent. Yet we are in communion with Rome, and more than that, our Patriarch, His Holiness Sviatoslav, stated that the UGCC is "Orthodox in praxis, teaching, and doctrine" If this is so, that means that the UGCC does not agree with the Roman Church on all points of dogma.

I have no idea where this is all going, but right now, I am in a sort of nether world regarding what I actually should believe and where I should be.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
Doom wrote:
I think the Biblical phrase 'the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart' has to be taken at face value. Not that God forced pharaoh to disbelieve against his will, but God could have given pharaoh the grace to believe, and he deliberately chose not to do that. Why did he choose not to do so? Because it gave God the opportunity to display his power to the Israelites if pharaoh had believed Moses, there never would have been a parting of the Red Sea or the establishment of the feast of Passover.


Another "why" to me would be that God knew that Pharaoh would never possess to the disposition to accept that grace in any regard, so to offer it would be an utter waste AND that God used that to show forth His power.


The problem with that is that makes pharaoh in charge and God only reacting to what he does, this ultimately means that we can save ourselves with our own efforts. It's ultimately Peligian.



Again, I don't know how you derive that conclusion because God's omniscience precedes Pharaoh's reaction.

He's no more "reacting" to Pharaoh than He "reacts" to Mary's fiat or that He "reacted" to Eve, and then Adam, eating the fruit of the forbidden tree.


I'm not conceiving of God's omniscience as something that depends on events in time. It's not like you or I anticipating someone's opinion or action, such as "if I do this, they're going to do this, then I'll respond by doing that."


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:44 pm 
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Quote:
I'm not conceiving of God's omniscience as something that depends on events in time. It's not like you or I anticipating someone's opinion or action, such as "if I do this, they're going to do this, then I'll respond by doing that."
Can you elaborate? Because that certainly sounds like what you're saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
I'm not conceiving of God's omniscience as something that depends on events in time. It's not like you or I anticipating someone's opinion or action, such as "if I do this, they're going to do this, then I'll respond by doing that."
Can you elaborate? Because that certainly sounds like what you're saying.


For example,(and correct me if I'm wrong)when God "answers" prayers, it's not as if we're changing God's mind or that He's altering His Providential Will to line up in accord with those prayers. Rather our prayers, in fact all prayers, and all free will choices, from all people of all times, are just a few of the innumerable points in which God ordered/orders all of the events in time from His ever-present "now" of eternity.


"Anticipation" on a merely human level, implies the possibility that we're mistaken in what we might foreknow.
That would not be omniscience because it would mean that there is some external barrier to God knowing. I'm not saying that Pharaoh could have acted otherwise but chose not to, and that therefore God had to react to that behavior.

I'm saying the exact opppsite: that Pharaoh's hardness of heart was caused by God both by His Providential Will in general and by God's presence in Moses in particular. That his hardened heart was the only possible result, and that God is merely informing Moses of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:49 am 
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Light of the East Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:25 pm
“the insertion of the filioque into the Creed… the Church (a universal and eccumenical council to decide this) was never consulted about this. Rome just did it. How do you justify that”

As the great Fr John a Hardon, S.J., points out “the Latin Fathers preferred…’from the father and from the Son’…” But “by the ninth century some Greek Orthodox leaders were saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.” What is obvious, is that the Latin formula leaves “no doubt about the perfect equality in divine nature of the three Persons of the Trinity.” [The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday & Co., 1975, p 65].

Quote:
When I look at both Churches, I see the same Sacraments, the same apostolic succession,

There is the Latin Rite, and the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church with the same dogma and doctrine; naturally, all of these are in union with the See of Peter and assent to Papal Supremacy. Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Holy See (e.g. Chaldean, Syrian, Maronite, Coptic, Armenian, and Byzantine rites) naturally require assent to all dogmas and doctrines.

The Orthodox Churches have broken with the See of Peter since 1054, and are individualistic among themselves. Since "legitimacy" means "lawfulness by virtue of being authorized", it is hardly reasonable to assume that the Orthodox Church has the same legitimacy as the Catholic Church in the mind of Christ, who gave His authority to Peter and his successors to teach, sanctify and rule, if Peter's authority is not recognised, for his supreme authority has been shown in the N.T.

“787. Apart from their rejection of Papal Infallibility, has purity of doctrine from the Catholic point of view been maintained by the Eastern Orthodox Churches?
Not entirely. Besides denying Papal Infallibility they would, of course, deny Papal Supremacy. They grant that the Pope has a primacy of honour, but not that he has supreme jurisdiction over the whole Church. They deny, also, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary as regards her exemption from original sin, although holding that she was ever personally sinless. In cases even of a valid marriage they permit divorce and remarriage. Other differences could be regarded as belonging to the area of non-essentials. Meantime, what the Catholic Church does recognise in the Eastern Orthodox Churches is the validity of their priestly ordinations; the legitimacy of their Eastern liturgical rites which are much the same as those in Eastern Rite Catholic Churches; and their general affinity of outlook with the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals. Needless to say, they are much nearer to the Catholic Church than any of the forms of Western Protestantism.”
http://www.radioreplies.info/radio-repl ... t=15&n=787


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:20 am 
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Jon Snow wrote:
I'm saying the exact opppsite: that Pharaoh's hardness of heart was caused by God both by His Providential Will in general and by God's presence in Moses in particular. That his hardened heart was the only possible result, and that God is merely informing Moses of this.


But how does that square with this?

Quote:
Another "why" to me would be that God knew that Pharaoh would never possess to the disposition to accept that grace in any regard, so to offer it would be an utter waste AND that God used that to show forth His power.


In this explanation, God is responding to the knowledge that Pharaoh will never possess the disposition to accept the grace. But the reason God knows that Pharaoh will not accept the grace is not founded in Pharaoh but in God, Who has willed not to give Pharaoh efficacious grace. It is a function of the Divine Will, not of the Divine Knowledge. Providence is founded on God's Will, not His Knowledge.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:28 am 
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Thomist wrote:
Quote:
Light of the East Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:25 pm
“the insertion of the filioque into the Creed… the Church (a universal and eccumenical council to decide this) was never consulted about this. Rome just did it. How do you justify that”

As the great Fr John a Hardon, S.J., points out “the Latin Fathers preferred…’from the father and from the Son’…” But “by the ninth century some Greek Orthodox leaders were saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.” What is obvious, is that the Latin formula leaves “no doubt about the perfect equality in divine nature of the three Persons of the Trinity.” [The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday & Co., 1975, p 65].

Quote:
When I look at both Churches, I see the same Sacraments, the same apostolic succession,

There is the Latin Rite, and the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church with the same dogma and doctrine; naturally, all of these are in union with the See of Peter and assent to Papal Supremacy. Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Holy See (e.g. Chaldean, Syrian, Maronite, Coptic, Armenian, and Byzantine rites) naturally require assent to all dogmas and doctrines.

The Orthodox Churches have broken with the See of Peter since 1054, and are individualistic among themselves. Since "legitimacy" means "lawfulness by virtue of being authorized", it is hardly reasonable to assume that the Orthodox Church has the same legitimacy as the Catholic Church in the mind of Christ, who gave His authority to Peter and his successors to teach, sanctify and rule, if Peter's authority is not recognised, for his supreme authority has been shown in the N.T.

“787. Apart from their rejection of Papal Infallibility, has purity of doctrine from the Catholic point of view been maintained by the Eastern Orthodox Churches?

Ithink
Not entirely. Besides denying Papal Infallibility they would, of course, deny Papal Supremacy. They grant that the Pope has a primacy of honour, but not that he has supreme jurisdiction over the whole Church. They deny, also, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary as regards her exemption from original sin, although holding that she was ever personally sinless. In cases even of a valid marriage they permit divorce and remarriage. Other differences could be regarded as belonging to the area of non-essentials. Meantime, what the Catholic Church does recognise in the Eastern Orthodox Churches is the validity of their priestly ordinations; the legitimacy of their Eastern liturgical rites which are much the same as those in Eastern Rite Catholic Churches; and their general affinity of outlook with the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals. Needless to say, they are much nearer to the Catholic Church than any of the forms of Western Protestantism.”
http://www.radioreplies.info/radio-repl ... t=15&n=787


After thinking about this discussion this morning, I think it would be prudent to move the rest of this discussion and other discussions to another thread in a private room away from visitors. I will start a thread with your post in the Lyceum and answer it there.


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