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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Quote:
actions (works) speak louder than words (faith)
Care to expand on that?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
actions (works) speak louder than words (faith)
Care to expand on that?



I would especially like to see that given his previous statements in regard to the subject at hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:36 pm 
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Not only does Ec2 have difficulty interpreting scripture but it now seems he can't even interpret his own words. :laughhard


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Perhaps I misread them. It happens.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Quote:
cjg wrote:

[How many churches did Christ establish?
Thomist has given you credible historical evidence for the succession of popes.

I propose that it is you who is giving us the wrong angle, not just on scripture but also on the historical facts.]


One church, one body, but it is made up of all believers, The gifts that were given when Jesus was lifted up were given to establish the church, that would hear and receive Gods word, which was given through the Apostles, but he also gave us evanglelists, pastor and teachers, that we would be edified through them, they would in turn, train and disciple the next generation, The Apostles were the foundation of the church we also have prophets from the old testament, which foretold of the Christ. but both the Prophets and Apostles have all moved on, but what is left is their words, Gods inspired word, this is what the Apostle Peter proclaimed, You are the Christ, the one who was foretold of, this is what made Peter apart of the foundation built on Christ, along with the other Apostles who would establish churches through out the Middle East, Asia and Europe. The Church spread throughout the world, and even though the Roman Empire was vast, the Church spread beyond it, so when in the 4th century Constantine convened the first Council of Nicaea, there existed christian churches outside of the “ Ecumenical” church of Rome which were separated by terrain and borders, language, ect. they most likely would not have joined the RCC even if they were invited. The Ana Baptist (re-Baptizers,) branched out into several modern day denominations and can trace their origins back to the Apostolic era. along with the Anglican, and other denominations.

Can you provide a list of “Popes” from the Apostle Peter till the 4th century? I would be interested in seeing this list and what source and criteria authenticates these men.

Ephesians 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Luke 24:25-26
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Ephesians 2:19-20
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Matthew 20:25-28
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 9:25 pm 
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john3:16 wrote:
Can you provide a list of “Popes” from the Apostle Peter till the 4th century? I would be interested in seeing this list and what source and criteria authenticates these men.


St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22) (Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236))
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Each name on the NewAdvent page links to an article about the individual in question and is adequately sourced.

This is precisely what I cited earlier which you seemed to have avoided. But perhaps you merely missed it.

And the Pope is a servant. "Servus servorum dei"-Servant of the servants of God. The pope and the bishops with him exert authority on matters of faith and morals, just as the Apostles did. They were the ones entrusted with the Apostles authority and ministry (2 Tim2:2; Heb 13:17).

So your use of Matthew to criticize the office of the Pope is at best a misconstruing of the text based upon your obvious lack of understanding of the Petrine office.

This is precisely why, instead of simply assuming things about the Church which aren't true, or going by things you've gotten from others who suffer from committing the very error you're committing now, you should read and study what the Church says about herself. There are sources a plentiful, beginning with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Otherwise you're going to be continually called out for building strawman fallacies and misrepresenting the Church.

Just something you might want to consider.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:07 pm 
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Quote:
John3:16 Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:02 pm
The Ana Baptist (re-Baptizers,) branched out into several modern day denominations and can trace their origins back to the Apostolic era. along with the Anglican, and other denominations.

False, Henry VIII established the Anglican denomination.

Peter is conspicuously involved in all the Church's important "firsts." Peter inflicted the first punishment upon Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic Simon the magician (Acts 8:2 1).
[This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

No Anglicans or any other sect arose from the Apostles, only against their teaching.
Quote:
Can you provide a list of “Popes” from the Apostle Peter till the 4th century? I would be interested in seeing this list and what source and criteria authenticates these men.
See the List of Popes at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm as Jon Snow has given you.

Your “histories” are fatally flawed.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:37 pm 
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John 3:16 wrote:

Quote:
The Ana Baptist (re-Baptizers,) branched out into several modern day denominations and can trace their origins back to the Apostolic era. along with the Anglican, and other denominations.


can you provide sources for this please.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:35 am 
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John3:16 wrote:
... The Church spread throughout the world, and even though the Roman Empire was vast, the Church spread beyond it, so when in the 4th century Constantine convened the first Council of Nicaea, there existed christian churches outside of the “ Ecumenical” church of Rome which were separated by terrain and borders, language, ect. they most likely would not have joined the RCC even if they were invited. The Ana Baptist (re-Baptizers,) branched out into several modern day denominations and can trace their origins back to the Apostolic era. along with the Anglican, and other denominations...

The idea that "The Ana Baptist... can trace their origins back to the Apostolic era," or that there were always Christians who believed as Evangelical Protestants do today is not supported by the historical record.

To think that such claims are true one must then ask: Did God abandon his Church until the 1600's? If not that, then have there always been Evangelical Protestants? Where was the Church before the Evangelical Protestants? Were there always "Bible Only Christians" who taught believers baptism is the only proper baptism, or that the Eucharist is only a symbolic memorial, and other low-church Protestant beliefs? If so, who were those groups and what else did they believe?

Most Evangelical Protestants simply assume it to be true that, in some form, their beliefs and practices can be traced back to the first century. When pressed they will refer to the Donatists, the Paulicians, the Cathari, the Waldensians, and other like groups to support their belief. (See "Landmarkism").

After reading James McGoldrick's book "A Crucial Question" it was clear to me that 1) in some cases we don’t have enough information to know WHAT these early non-Catholic groups believed about particular topics, and 2) in other cases what we do know about what they believed puts them well outside of Evangelical Protestant theology.

The Evangelical Protestantism known today did not exist in the first millennium, or for many centuries in the second millennium. Based on the available information, none of the non-Catholic groups that existed in the distant past can be considered 21st century Evangelical Protestants.

Reference:

Baptist Successionism: A Critical View by W. Morgan Patterson (Judson Press, 1969). In this book Patterson examines the rise of the successionist view; the successionist historians use of sources; logical fallacies and uncritical perspective; and factors contributing to Baptist successionism.

Patterson examines the work of early Baptist writers and finds that they were more apologists than historians. They cited sources that agreed with them and ignored those that did not support their position. They took statements out of context. They removed ellipsis. They argued "ad populum" to support their contentions. They cited secondary sources as if they were primary. They often did not cite the sources of their information (primary or secondary).

Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History by James Edward McGoldrick (Scarecrow Press, 2000). Inspired by Patterson, in this book McGoldrick looks at what groups like Montanists, Novatians, Paulicians, Bogomils, Albigenses, Waldenses, and Anabaptists actually believed.

Heresies of the High Middle Ages translated and annotated by Walter Wakefield and Austin Evans (Columbia University Press, 1991). Original source material on the major sects - Waldenses, Albigensians, Bogomils and Cathars - are explored; as well as many minor movements including "Manichaeans" in Aquitaine and near Soissons; Heresy at Orleans, Peter of Bruys, Arnold of Brescia, and others. Additionally, Catholics who lived in this era and wrote about the heretics are included: Bernard of Clairvaux Against Heresy, The Summa of Rainerius Sacconi, and others.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:29 am 
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cjg wrote:
John 3:16 wrote:

Quote:
The Ana Baptist (re-Baptizers,) branched out into several modern day denominations and can trace their origins back to the Apostolic era. along with the Anglican, and other denominations.


can you provide sources for this please.



I'd like to see these supposed sources because AFAIK no sich evidence exists. The only way that the Anabaptists, or any denomination, can trace their origins back to the Apostles is by going through the Catholic Church.

Thus they must either admit that such a link doesn't exist, and never existed to begin with, or at the LEAST admit that they must grant the authority of the Church, a Church that has explicity stated that all strains of protestant thought, including the Anabaptists, are heretical.

The idea of some sort of "remnant" third line is not supported by any evidence at all. It's nothing but a myth and a fairy tale.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:16 pm 
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For the OP:

If you have an hour and a half, watch this video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L14UNjaZJm8

It is a "straight to point" video explaining how believers can lose their salvation, in addition to the Lie of the Reformation.


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