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 Post subject: Re: I Don't Understand the Eden Story
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:46 am 
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MiloHilltop wrote:
I have no trouble recognizing that my thinking and perception are not boundless. And yet, I can imagine several scenarios that reduce human suffering and increase the number of those 'saved'.

Even if there are flaws in these ideas, they could be overcome by an all-powerful being.

Can I encourage you not to abandon or get bored by your line of thought here? I can tell you that you've stumbled across a very deep and profound issue as to the very essence of Divinity. In other words, if you follow Obi's (or take his comments and questions to you very seriously and don't dismiss them), you'll get a much better idea of what the word "God" refers to in the first place. He's also an excellent teacher, not prone (as I am) to very long, sometimes far too abstract explanations that answer questions you haven't asked yet. I just want to really highlight your focus on his words, in this case, here:

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God didn't have to choose those criteria, and obviously He didn't.

:popcorn


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 Post subject: Re: I Don't Understand the Eden Story
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:53 am 
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I will throw out one example of the sort of thing I'm talking about:

In choosing not to minimize suffering, God offers a chance for people to show courage and endurance, and offers other people a chance to show compassion and care. (Nearly everyone gets a chance to be in both groups at various times.) If courage, endurance, compassion, and care are valuable things, as I would argue they are, then a world in which they can be displayed is better, at least in that respect, than one in which they cannot.


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 Post subject: Re: I Don't Understand the Eden Story
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:00 am 
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“My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
Matthew 26:36-56


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 Post subject: Re: I Don't Understand the Eden Story
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:49 am 
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I think the above conversation between two members of the Godhead gives insight to their thinking process right back to their inception of creation.


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 Post subject: Re: I Don't Understand the Eden Story
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:23 am 
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Quote:
In choosing not to minimize suffering, God offers a chance for people to show courage and endurance, and offers other people a chance to show compassion and care. (Nearly everyone gets a chance to be in both groups at various times.) If courage, endurance, compassion, and care are valuable things, as I would argue they are, then a world in which they can be displayed is better, at least in that respect, than one in which they cannot.


I find your argument flawed. If suffering were reduced, say perhaps by eliminating malaria, that would not deny people the chance to show compassion and care. A world with reduced suffering, in which people can still demonstrate positive qualities, would be better, at least in respect to the human condition.


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 Post subject: Re: I Don't Understand the Eden Story
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:30 am 
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How much suffering is too much?


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 Post subject: Re: I Don't Understand the Eden Story
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:48 pm 
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In a world of reduced suffering, that would not deny people the chance to show compassion and care what demonstrative qualities of the human condition could supplant those same qualities to show compassion and care brought about though suffering ? Certainly there are other ways of attaining and showing compassion and care but where are the substitute qualities to show compassion and care derived from suffering found other than in suffering ? There are no substitutes for suffering’s demonstrative qualities to show compassion and care . They are unique in and of themselves and are a required, undeniable part of the human condition. However, contained within the Christian tradition, suffering’s qualitative ability offered up to God is a unique experience, a blend of pain and love for one another and an individual’s chance to atone for themselves and others through that very suffering, as Christ’s suffering atoned for all. So, as Obi says, how much suffering is too much, when realized suffering offers such unique qualities to show compassion and care ? Although I fear you’ll completely reject it, perhaps the better question is, concerning the unique and high quality value of atonement suffering has, ... can there even be too much suffering ?


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 Post subject: Re: I Don't Understand the Eden Story
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:30 am 
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Rejoice in the Lord always
Phil 4:4


"For there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

Shahespeare


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