Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 8 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: Marius Victorinius one last early Christian i wanted to ask
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:08 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 28
Religion: Not sure
I would like to thank everybody who helped me with answering such difficult questions but there is one more that I hope to have help with an early Christian by the name of Marius Victorinus

Marius Victorinus was a plationist philosopher that converted to Christianity near the end of his life, supposedly his conversation had made a great impact on Augustine. However I have seen people claim he had taught Sola Fide! Do we have an expert in this forum that can find some Catholic commentary on his work? There are many Evangelicals that claimed he taught Sola Fide.

Here is one for example (starts on page 3) http://baptistcenter.net/journals/JBTM_ ... g_2014.pdf

http://ctdev.concordiatheology.org/2010 ... -thy-word/
I was under the impression that Sola Fide was a "novelty" created by Martin Luther in the 16th century as an over-reaction

When Victorinus said "Thus any flesh whatsoever"”Jews or those from the Gentiles"”is justified on the basis of faith, not works or observance of the Jewish Law."

Is the "works" he is referring to here works of the Jewish law and saying both works and observations of the Jewish law do not justify or is he splitting up general acts of kindness with Jewish ceremonial laws and saying they both not needed for justification?


Last edited by Setsurinvich on Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marius Victorinius one last early Christian i wanted to
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:33 am 
Offline
King of Cool

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 73808
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Okay, a few points are in order here

1. this is an incredibly obscure figure that I think even many experts in Patristics have probably never heard of
2. Any influence the guy might have had on Augustine is no doubt absolutely dwarfed by the influence that men like Ambrose of Milan had on him
3. The quote provided is little more than a paraphrase of a famous passage from the Epistles of Paul in the New Testament, it is neither an original thought nor even an original wording of the thought

And finally, one last point. The time period in question is from an era that modern sociologists would refer to as a 'high context society', what this means is that it was a society in which all communication was IMPLICIT and to understand what was said, it is necessary to understand the full culture.

In a higher-context culture, the way words are said are more important than the words itself, for the most part, therefore, many things are left unsaid, relying on the context of the moment and the culture as a whole for full explication.

in a high context culture, words carry more information than would appear on the surface.


In a low context society, communication tends to be direct and explicit, and little comprehension of the surrounding culture is necessary to understand what is being said.



For evidence of the fact that we live in a low context culture in America today, I offer the following proof: American movies, which are filled with explicit references to American history and American pop culture, are wildly popular overseas. Indeed, often, American movies are even more popular overseas than they are here in the States. A movie like Transformers or the latest Marvel or DC Comics film may make as much as 2/3 to 3/4 of its box office overseas.

What this means is that American culture is easy to export to other countries. One doesn't have to understand all that much about American society to be able to enjoy a movie like The Force Awakens or Captain America Civil War. This is an indication that we live in a low context society.

On the other hand, something like Japanese Noh drama is not popular in the west at all, either in the United States or in Europe. This is not, I don't think because, they aren't 'good', but it is because, for those who don't live in Japan, the Noh dramas are difficult to relate to and hard to understand. They come from a high context society, and therefore, it is very difficult to export them to places outside of Japan.



What you are witnessing here with this and the other examples you have provided is an example of what happens when someone from our modern low context culture tries to read a document from a high context culture without any understanding of the cultural context that is necessary to fully understand the document.

The era of the Fathers, the era of the early Church, is a VERY high context culture. Unless one is very, very, very deeply knowledgeable about the culture and society of the Early Church, it is very difficult to understand what the Fathers were saying. It was difficult, even for non-Christians, of that time period to understand Christian writings, despite the fact that they all shared a common culture, let alone those of us living today 1,500-2,000 years later, who do not share a common culture with the Early Church.

So, I think the evangelicals you are reading are probably sincere and honest people. But they are digging deep into the writings of people who lived in a high context culture without any understanding of the cultural context of what they are reading. Therefore, they are completely missing the point of what they are reading, and are thus inadvertently reading their own beliefs into the text through ignorance.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marius Victorinius one last early Christian i wanted to
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:45 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 28
Religion: Not sure
Thanks for the response still it would be nice for a Catholic understanding of the text if someone can find one. The only people talking about him are evangelicals it seems


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marius Victorinius one last early Christian i wanted to
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:49 am 
Offline
King of Cool

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 73808
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Setsurinvich wrote:
Thanks for the response still it would be nice for a Catholic understanding of the text if someone can find one. The only people talking about him are evangelicals it seems


It is just a quotation from Paul, find any Catholic on Paul.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marius Victorinius one last early Christian i wanted to
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:22 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 28
Religion: Not sure
I understand but here is something I realized

1.Augustine loved this guy
2.Augustine believed that baptism was so necessary for salvation that even infants needed it
3. If Victorinius rejected Augustine's beliefs about Baptism (remember Baptism is a work in the eyes of evangelicals) why would Augustine admire him?
4. Victorinius did not teach Sola Fide in any meaningful sense


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marius Victorinius one last early Christian i wanted to
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:37 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4764
Location: Castle Black: my chamber behind the Armory
Religion: Catholic
Setsurinvich wrote:
I understand but here is something I realized

1.Augustine loved this guy
2.Augustine believed that baptism was so necessary for salvation that even infants needed it
3. If Victorinius rejected Augustine's beliefs about Baptism (remember Baptism is a work in the eyes of evangelicals) why would Augustine admire him?
4. Victorinius did not teach Sola Fide in any meaningful sense


(To dare steal a page from Treebeard in the other thread.)

Personal admiration is by no means a reflection of doctrinal truth. Augustine also had admiration for Mani and for the party of the Donatists, they were still wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marius Victorinius one last early Christian i wanted to
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:04 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 28
Religion: Not sure
Jon Snow wrote:
Setsurinvich wrote:
I understand but here is something I realized

1.Augustine loved this guy
2.Augustine believed that baptism was so necessary for salvation that even infants needed it
3. If Victorinius rejected Augustine's beliefs about Baptism (remember Baptism is a work in the eyes of evangelicals) why would Augustine admire him?
4. Victorinius did not teach Sola Fide in any meaningful sense


(To dare steal a page from Treebeard in the other thread.)

Personal admiration is by no means a reflection of doctrinal truth. Augustine also had admiration for Mani and for the party of the Donatists, they were still wrong.

i am aware of that but Victorinius's conversion had a major effect on Augustine, Victorinius conversion playing a major role in Augstine's own conversion, also there was not one peep from Jerome, someone who clearly goes against Sola Fide about Victorinius


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marius Victorinius one last early Christian i wanted to
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:21 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:55 pm
Posts: 812
Location: Sydney Australia
Religion: Catholic
Setsurinvich, you might find this article interesting: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/solafide.htm


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 8 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: