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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:02 am 
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The Galileo affair was a sequence of events, beginning around 1610,[1] culminating with the trial and condemnation of Galileo Galilei by the Roman Catholic Inquisition in 1633 for his support of heliocentrism (Italian: il processo a Galileo Galilei).[2]
In 1610, Galileo published his Sidereus Nuncius (Starry Messenger), describing the surprising observations that he had made with the new telescope, namely the phases of Venus and the Galilean moons of Jupiter. With these observations he promoted the heliocentric theory of Nicolaus Copernicus (published in De revolutionibus orbium coelestium in 1543).

Galileo's initial discoveries were met with opposition within the Catholic Church, and in 1616 the Inquisition declared heliocentrism to be formally heretical. Heliocentric books were banned and Galileo was ordered to refrain from holding, teaching or defending heliocentric ideas.[3]

Galileo went on to propose a theory of tides in 1616, and of comets in 1619; he argued that the tides were evidence for the motion of the Earth. In 1632 Galileo, now an old man, published his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which implicitly defended heliocentrism, and was immensely popular. Responding to mounting controversy over theology, astronomy and philosophy, the Roman Inquisition tried Galileo in 1633 and found him "vehemently suspect of heresy", sentencing him to indefinite imprisonment. Galileo was kept under house arrest until his death in 1642.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He was sentenced and imprisoned until his death, he was convicted of a crime, and with hindsight we know he was not guilty of the charges.
This is a good example of perception is reality, We all have finite minds, and can only process information available to us, and how we process it determines whether the results will stand the test of time. This is why traditions can be profitable or a determent to us.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:04 am 
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theJack: Thu May 18, 2017 10:55 am
I am challenging a much narrower claim that I think that some overly zealous Catholic apologists unnecessarily make, that is, the claim that the interpretation of Scripture is fundamentally and/or ultimately not the result of the use of reason
.
False. Right reason is the answer.

As St Paul affirms to the Romans to worship God “in a way that is worthy of thinking beings“ (Rom 12:1). More right reasoning: “if Christ has not been raised then our preaching us useless and your believing is useless” (1 Cor 15:14).

And how do we know what to believe? Since Christ gave us His Church and She authorised a precisely defined New Testament as part of the defined Sacred Scriptures, true belief is assured for those who are faithful.

Thus Christ’s complete teaching is assured through Her Magisterium, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, with the faithful application in dogma and doctrine to all new problems which arise.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:28 am 
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John3:16
Wikipedia is not renowned for accuracy – forget it.

In fact, Galileo picked a very inopportune time to attack the Bible following Catholic Luther’s revolt and errors over the Scriptures.
Second, he was publicly disrespectful and disobedient.
Third, he was wrong in his interpretation of the Bible.
Fourth, he was wrong in his Physics.

‘In the fourth century, St. Augustine had counselled his fellow Christians to read the scriptures to find spiritual truths -- not matters of natural science. Galileo should have heeded this advice of thirteen centuries before, instead of asserting that the Bible was in error -- in particular Joshua 10.13 “Sun and Moon stood still”. We will agree with Galileo’s own statement, “Holy writ is intended to teach men how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go” just as we would agree also with Cardinal Bellarmine’s reply, “If there is contradiction between the Bible and observed facts, let us say we have misunderstood the Bible rather than pronounce false what is demonstrated”. It was this over-literal interpretation of the language of the Bible that caused Galileo’s trouble.’
From: Science and the Church
Rev. Bro. Dr. V. McKenna, B.A., M.Sc., Ph.D.
An edited version of an address given by Rev. Bro. Dr. McKenna at the University of W.A., June, 1964

Alfred North Whitehead, F.R.S., knew that Catholic theology was essential for the rise of science in the West, while stifled elsewhere.
He explained: “The greatest contribution of medievalism to the scientific movement [was] the inexpungable belief that …there is a secret, a secret which can be unveiled. How has this conviction been so vividly implanted in the European mind?....It must come from the medieval insistence on the rationality of God, conceived with the personal energy of Jehovah and with the rationality of a Greek philosopher. Every detail was supervised and ordered: the search into nature could only result in the vindication of the faith in rationality.” [E.L. Jones, 1987; in The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 15].
 


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:48 am 
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Science and the Church
Rev. Bro. Dr. V. McKenna, B.A., M.Sc., Ph.D.

An edited version of an address given by Rev. Bro. Dr. McKenna at the University of W.A., June, 1964.

'1. The inopportune time.
While not condoning in any way the action of some of the Cardinals at this time, one can hardly blame the Church authorities for taking a dim view of an attack on the veracity of the Bible, at a time when the Church was being rent by major heresies as in England, Germany and Switzerland.

'2. His public disobedience.
Just as today scientific contributions to reputable journals are passed to a panel of referees for censoring before being published, and just as any book on religious matters published these days by a Catholic author is submitted to his Bishop for an Imprimatur, so did Galileo obtain permission to publish his works, as can be seen on the frontispiece of most of his books. For his “Dialogue on Two World Systems”, published in 1632, after the first clash in 1616, Galileo had permission to publish on two conditions: (a) that the Copernican theory be presented as theory and not as fact; and (b) that the papal arguments be included in the book. He failed to comply with the first condition, and offended the authorities by placing the papal arguments in the mouth of Simplicio, the rather slow-witted member of the three characters in the book. It was for these reasons that he was asked to appear before the Inquisition and made to recant his statement that the sun was known to be stationary, and made to do penance for his rudeness, both of which he carried out. His so-called imprisonment was merely a curtailment of his movements about Italy. He was in receipt of a papal pension from this time, he carried out experimental work at his residence - discovering the small oscillations in the moon’s movements - and drew up a navigation system based upon the satellites of Jupiter. On his deathbed he was sent a papal blessing, a rather rare and highly prized privilege for any Catholic.

'3. His wrong interpretation of the Bible.
In the fourth century, St. Augustine had counselled his fellow Christians to read the scriptures to find spiritual truths - not matters of natural science. Galileo should have heeded this advice of thirteen centuries before, instead of asserting that the Bible was in error - in particular Joshua 10.13 “Sun and Moon stood still”. We will agree with Galileo’s own statement, “Holy writ is intended to teach men how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go” just as we would agree also with Cardinal Bellarmine’s reply, “If there is contradiction between the Bible and observed facts, let us say we have misunderstood the Bible rather than pronounce false what is demonstrated”. It was this over-literal interpretation of the language of the Bible that caused Galileo’s trouble.

'4. He was wrong in his Physics.
The Copernican theory needed the velocity of light , first measured in 1675, and Newton’s Law of Gravitation, formulated in 1700, for its proof, and obviously these were not available to Galileo in 1616. His proof from the tides was completely wrong. Most scientists of his day disagreed with his theory - two famous cases being Tycho Brahe and Francis Bacon. This alone would vindicate the action of the Cardinals who also condemned it; - (and, if it may help the present Ecumenical movement, let it be noted that Calvin and Luther both condemned it violently). As Huxley pointed out, “the Pope and the Cardinals had the better of it.” In America both Yale and Harvard taught the Geocentric theory plus the Heliocentric theory until the eighteenth century. According to Professor Bok, the first real proof of the Copernican theory came with the discovery of the aberration of starlight in 1725, a century after Galileo’s time.'


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:12 am 
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The Jack wrote:
Quote:
cjg wrote:
It is very frustrating engaging with non catholics who in order to validate their theology

I've not made a single theological claim in this thread, and certainly not in my conversation with you. I wonder if your inability to properly distinguish the types of questions we're dealing with isn't part of the source of your methodological problems.


In this instance I was generalising & didn't specifically have only you in mind. I wonder if your tendency to be so self absorbed isn't part of the source of your methodological problems.

The Jack wrote:
Quote:
As you note, a lot of people disagree with your church's interpretation of Matt 16:18. The history of interpretation is certainly a historical fact that needs historical explanation. But the claim that "Christ founded a church" is not a historical claim that needs historical explanation.


Quote:
Moreover, you've failed to understand or at least to use a proper historiography.


Quote:
And if all that weren't enough, you implicitly contradict yourself in this very post and agree with my fundamental point! You appeal to Matt 16:18 as evidence of your position. Do you not see what you're doing? You expect me to read the text and interpret it in the only reasonable way. You even attempt to offer an argument--that is, reasons why I should read the text the way you do and reasons why my interpretation is incorrect. But just here, then, you are claiming, with me that Scripture is to be interpreted reasonably. But then you stop doing so when it suits you. That, my misguided friend, is called a taxi-cab fallacy.


Quote:
I've no interest in "destroying" anyone. I would, however, strongly request that you take your own advice and substantiate your claims. In every post I have made (with the obvious exception to the post Linsou complained about--I can't think of any others of the top of my head), I have offered arguments to back up every assertion I've made. You, on the other hand, seem content to offer little more than mere assertions based on blind faith. And if that's enough for you, fine. But don't complain when Baptists reject your claims on blind faith, when Mormons reject your claims on blind faith, when Muslims reject your claims on blind faith, when Hindus reject your claims on blind faith, and so on. Because exactly the same pity you look at them is the way we look at you when you refuse to make a reasonable argument for your faith.



You might disagree with the Catholic interpretation of Matt 16:18 but all you have to offer is your own subjective reasoning to support your contentious assertions. The weight of intellectual consensus supports the Catholic interpretation, not yours. It is this consensus, the writings of the church fathers & the teaching of the magisterium that I rely on to understand the meaning of Matt 16:18. So far from being a case of "blind faith" it is purely objective reasoning.

"The Roman Catholic church ... the only legitimate inheritor, by an unbroken episcopal succession descending from Saint Peter to the present time, of the commission and powers conferred by Jesus Christ...Until the break with the Eastern church in 1054 and the break with the Protestant churches in the 1500s, it is impossible to separate the history of the Roman Catholic church from the history of Christianity" (The Encarta Encyclopedia © 1997 says)

"33-40 A.D.The Roman Catholic Church is founded by Jesus Christ"(The Timetables of History © 1975)

"St. Peter, of Bethsaida in Galilee, From Christ he received the name of Cepha, an Aramaic name which means rock .Prince of the Apostles, was the first pope of the Roman Catholic Church. He lived first in Antioch and then in Rome for 25 years. In C.E. 64 or 67, he was martyred. St. Linus became the second pope." (National Almanac © 1996)

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a Church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him (Letter to the Trallians 3:1-2 [A. D. 110]).


http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_church.htm
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apo ... origin.htm

The Jack wrote:

Quote:
Suppose you are right (if CC is still reading, this is exactly the type of argument I was trying to get you to engage in earlier which you refused to do)


Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the reason we refused to engage might have something to do with us not wanting to tediously plough through an endless presentation of subjective reasoning which holds no weight of authority in light of the fact that it contradicts the weight of intellectual consensus as given above.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:41 am 
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cjg wrote:
subjective reasoning

And there's the impugning of reasoning itself that "apologists" who take your approach always end up coming back to. I leave you to your fideism. I hope your betters help you someday see how you slander your church and your faith with this kind of nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:36 pm 
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The Jack wrote:
Quote:
And there's the impugning of reasoning itself that "apologists" who take your approach always end up coming back to. I leave you to your fideism. I hope your betters help you someday see how you slander your church and your faith with this kind of nonsense.


You accuse me of fideism & yet I have presented you with objective evidence in support of my position. Until you can do the same with respect to substantiating your assertions you will remain what you are, a small fish blindly swimming in the wrong direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Epilogue:

The Pope convenes the College of Cardinals to make a special announcement.

“I have good news and bad news,” he tells them. “First the good news: Our gracious heavenly father Jesus Christ is returning to Earth for the Second Coming, at which time he will preside over a meeting of all Christian denominations, for the purpose of uniting them into a single Christian church.

“Now for the bad news: He wants to hold the meeting in Salt Lake City.”


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Epi- epilogue:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"

He said, "Why not? Nobody loves me."

I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes."

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"

He said, "A Christian."

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"

He said, "Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:11 pm 
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EC2 wrote:
Quote:
Epilogue:

The Pope convenes the College of Cardinals to make a special announcement.

“I have good news and bad news,” he tells them. “First the good news: Our gracious heavenly father Jesus Christ is returning to Earth for the Second Coming, at which time he will preside over a meeting of all Christian denominations, for the purpose of uniting them into a single Christian church.

“Now for the bad news: He wants to hold the meeting in Salt Lake City.”


how very gracious of you to portray the Pope as the one who announces the second coming of Christ. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Just cause I couldnt stop laughing:

A priest and a rabbi are flying together to an ecumenical convention. As the plane takes off, both men instinctively cross themselves.

“For the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost!” the priest explains.

“Wallet, cigars, spectacles, testicles,” the rabbi explains.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:42 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Epi- epilogue:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"

He said, "Why not? Nobody loves me."

I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes."

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"

He said, "A Christian."

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"

He said, "Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.


Reminds me of the story my dad used to tell about the six men shipwrecked on a deserted island. The two Catholics go off and form the Church of the Sacred Heart. The two Jews go off and form the Temple Beth-Israel. The two Baptists go off and form the First and Second Baptist Churches. ::):

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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:21 pm 
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I like it better with five men--two Catholics, two Jews, and one Baptist, the last one starting the First and a few months later the Second Baptist Church. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:22 pm 
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This brings us to reality.
https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2017/0 ... not-rigid/
THE CATHOLIC THING
The Truth Is Real, Not Rigid
Fr. Gerald E. Murray
Thursday, May 18, 2017
Excerpt:

‘Dietrich von Hildebrand wrote in his essay The Dethronement of Truth: “Disrespect for truth – when not merely a theoretical thesis, but a lived attitude – patently destroys all morality, even all reasonability and all community life. All objective norms are dissolved by this attitude of indifference toward truth; so also is the possibility of resolving any discussion or controversy objectively. Peace among individuals or nations and all trust in other persons are impossible as well. The very basis of a really human life is subverted.” ‘

‘Truth is cast aside at our great peril.’

So as the Jesus who built His Church on St Peter accompanied by the Apostles teaches us:
“And you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (Jn 8:32). "The Holy Spirit who the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your mind whatever I have said to you.” (Jn 14:26).

As Jesus had commanded: “Going therefore, teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you” (Mt 28:19).

Those who know little about Christ cannot know His Church. Until you are clear on Christ and His Church you will be unclear on everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:28 pm 
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Quote:
[3. His wrong interpretation of the Bible.
In the fourth century, St. Augustine had counselled his fellow Christians to read the scriptures to find spiritual truths - not matters of natural science. Galileo should have heeded this advice of thirteen centuries before, instead of asserting that the Bible was in error - in particular Joshua 10.13 “Sun and Moon stood still”.


Quote:
We will agree with Galileo’s own statement, “Holy writ is intended to teach men how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go” just as we would agree also with Cardinal Bellarmine’s reply, “If there is contradiction between the Bible and observed facts, let us say we have misunderstood the Bible rather than pronounce false what is demonstrated”. It was this over-literal interpretation of the language of the Bible that caused Galileo’s trouble.]


The passage where the Sun and Moon stood still was from our perspective, the Sun and Moon appear to rise and set, but we understand that it is the rotation of the earth that causes this effect, I agree with the statement Cardinal Bellarmine that you quoted, “let us say we have misunderstood the Bible rather than pronounce false what is demonstrated” , Galileo was not contradicting the bible, but their Theology, which this Cardinal confesses. As I stated earlier the CC has contributed much to science and higher education, but there was a period of time when they ruled as tyrants, they took verses such as Rev. 2:26-27 as a license to rule with a rod of iron, forgetting that this prophesy was speaking of a time when the king (Jesus) would be on the throne of David, and that they would be on his right hand and left hand. (This is during the Millennium period, 1000 yr. reign)


Revelation 2:26-27
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Daniel 2:44-45
4 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Quote:
John3:16 Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:28 pm
the CC has contributed much to science and higher education, but there was a period of time when they ruled as tyrants

Thank you for the truth re science and education. The Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ Himself can be nothing else than holy, while her members can sin like all of mankind.

In reality some three thousand Jews converted, as St Peter testifies to the divinity of Jesus by His Resurrection. The Catholic Church has never taught the persecution of anyone, much less Jews.

“Slavery ended in medieval Europe only because the Church extended its sacraments to all slaves and then managed to impose a ban on the enslavement of Christians (and of Jews)." [The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 28]. Rodney Stark is not even a Catholic.

In First Things (November 1997), Harvard Law Professor Mary Ann Glendon wrote of St John Paul II that “the Pope himself has acknowledged the mistakes and sins of Christians in connection with, among other things, the Crusades, the Inquisition, persecution of the Jews, religious wars, Galileo, and the treatment of women. Thus, though the Pope himself is careful to speak of sin or error on the part of the Church’s members or representatives, rather than the Church in its fullness, that important theological distinction is almost always lost in the transmission.” [My emphasis].


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:42 pm 
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It is also vital to know that the Pope never apologises for the Church which is ‘held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy’ ” [Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, art 39]. Therefore Popes have apologised for the sins of Catholics, never for ‘the Church’.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:51 am 
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theJack wrote:
And by the way, none of the above or anything in any of my arguments in this thread is meant or has been meant to discredit the Catholic Church per se or claim that the Catholic faith is wrong...

Well... I guess I'm glad to hear that. (Although I can't get it out of my mind that your POV seems to toss aside 2,000 years of Roman Catholic church history in favor of something - "objective interpretive principles" - that is only recent and anecdotal among non-Catholic Christians.) I was going to ask about (1) bishops, priests, and deacons, and (2) "the church", but I think I'll stop now. At least for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:35 am 
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There is a real sense in which I "toss aside 2,000 of Roman Catholic church history." But I don't think that sense should be any threat to you or your faith or your church or whatever. I really dislike when people speculate about my motives in making some point, so I try not to do that to others. That said, I'm going to do it now. I am concern that a lot of the push back on exegetical analysis (not filtered through what secondary sources say the primary source means) isn't about the text at all but rather about a counterreaction to the fact that exegetical analysis is so popular "among non-Catholic Christians." In other words, evangelicals and liberals do it, and they use it to attack the Catholic church, so the method must be wrong.

Put that way, I hope you can see how such an attitude is silly. There's nothing anti-Catholic about asking for an exegetical theology following a historical-grammatical exegesis. Once again, the fundamental claim that some make that you cannot come to a proper understanding of the meaning of some piece of biblical literature, be in in Genesis or Romans or Jude, without first filtering that text through the apparatus of church tradition should strike you as wrong headed on its face. I am not saying that you don't ever look to church tradition. I'm saying that you create insurmountable hermeneutical problems when you make it the primary or even a necessary step in interpretation.

At bottom, I am making a scientific claim. Linguistics is a field of study in its own right, and we've made some pretty impressive advancements. Some of what passes for linguistic science is wrong, for sure, given some of the philosophical commitments of its early (and even modern) advocates. But you don't cede an entire field of rational inquiry to non-believers just because they get it wrong at the start and then predictably get the wrong conclusions. In that case, we wouldn't do anything! And that's what I'm afraid is happening here. Your church has largely conceded the Scriptures to non-Catholics. You can insist all you want that you preach and believe the Bible, that you love it and study it. And the more charitable among us non-Catholics who aren't just trying to make stupid debate points grant that. We aren't so stupid as to claim that's not true. But I hope you can see how you give your opponents ammunition, and how that ammunition is used by sophists, when you take the idiotic apologetic approach that has been thrown at me in this thread. The fact that good, inquiring Catholics have even a hint of difficulty identifying a few dozen solid Catholic exegetes who are providing solid, exegetical commentary (yes, from a Catholic perspective and so in line with Church tradition yet without being predetermined by it) should strike you as highly problematic! It does me, anyway. Because I could name dozens and dozens and dozens of solid biblical scholars doing exegetical work from a non-Catholic perspective. And I could do that long before I spent my first day Bible college or seminary.

So I'd say the same thing to you, and to the board again, that I said to Linsou earlier: consider offering and promoting substantial arguments, within context, on the meaning of biblical passages. Offer reasoned analysis that undergirds and shows the consistency of your faith. You've done it with so many subjects. Why not the Scriptures as well?

Or don't. Linsou and cjg have unfortunately apparently opted for "don't." My hope is that some will. To end on a positive note, I have in my years here had exactly one somewhat extended conversation with one individual that I can recall--Closet Catholic did some of that type of work, and I, for one, was very grateful. He is, quite literally, the only person I can think of that I've interacted with over the past however many years it has been who has taken the time to dig into the meaning of a text from its own perspective with attempt to show how that perspective not only is consistent with but leads to a Catholic understanding. He should be commended for that. I just hope to see more of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:47 am 
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Religion: Christian
Tradition!!!
:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSoYCetG6A


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