Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 14 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:44 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39298
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
So this phrase has been in the news quite a bit lately. A couple of related questions:

(1) Did the term "responsible parenthood" originate with Humanae Vitae?

(2) Can the translation of "paternitatis consciae" as "responsible parenthood" be justified? If so, is it the best translation? Are there other contexts in which conscius is translated as "responsible"? Would not the concept of "responsible" (assuming that's what the author meant) be better rendered in Latin as responsalis, responsabilis?

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:58 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 76205
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Dconscius

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:12 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 76205
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Mmmmmmm ... couscous.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:19 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39298
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dconscius

Is that a definitive answer? I don't see "responsible" among the varied meanings of conscius. In your opinion, is "responsible" a good way of rendering conscius into English?

I believe this is an important question, because if the phrase "responsible parenthood" originated with Humanae Vitae, and it is indeed a mistranslation, then an entire corpus of teaching has been developed around a mistranslated phrase. "Conscious parenthood" or "knowing parenthood" are slightly different than "responsible parenthood," a phrase which lends itself to the notion that parents should (or even must) seek to limit the conception of children in accordance with their means. I think this is contrary to the authentic teaching that they can (but not must or even should) choose to postpone conception if they have just reasons for doing so.

N.B.: The French version also has "responsible" (responsable). So do the Spanish and the Italian! I also note that the headings are omitted in the Latin -- one wonders if they were added by the translators (all of them?) or if they were removed when the Latin was finalized.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:27 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39298
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
I did a search on Google and while the phrase "responsible parenthood" did not originate with Humanae Vitae, it appears that HV introduced it into the Catholic lexicon - or at least made the phrase acceptable among Catholics in general. Prior to 1960 it was used by those in favor of population control and those Christians who rejected abortion but not contraception (and so used as a euphemism for "birth control"). It does seem like there were a few Catholic writers who were using the phrase from 1963 onward.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:33 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 76205
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Lewis and Short is the standard Latin dictionary for classical Latin; I don't know if it deals with ecclesial usage much.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:37 am 
Offline
Corporate Minion Moderator
Corporate Minion Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:18 pm
Posts: 17321
Location: Just visiting this planet.
Religion: Finally Catholic!
Church Affiliations: Legion of Mary, SVdP
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Mmmmmmm ... couscous.


I have a fantastic recipe for orange chicken that's served on couscous...interested?

_________________
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." --Douglas Adams

Image

Commit to the Image

formerly "ghall512"--Thanks for the idea, arkcatholic! :clap:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:38 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39298
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
I mean, this might be one of those "active participation" things.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:22 am 
Offline
The Exterminator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:44 pm
Posts: 26705
Location: The Old Forest
Religion: Númenórean Catholic
The "doctrine" of responsible parenthood is wrong.

I hate to go all sola scriptura here, but I can't find any support for it in the Bible, rather the opposite. I find nowhere in the Bible where limiting the number of one's children is recommended or seen as beneficial. Rather, children are referred to as a blessing and barrenness as a curse. Then there is the quiver full verse in Psalms.

_________________
This is absurd.

- Justice Scalia, dissent, King v. Burwell.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:50 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39298
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Bombadil wrote:
The "doctrine" of responsible parenthood is wrong.

If you mean interpreted as "parents should not have more children if they don't have the means to support them," then yes, it is wrong.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:00 pm 
Offline
The Exterminator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:44 pm
Posts: 26705
Location: The Old Forest
Religion: Númenórean Catholic
Yes, but also that it is somehow better not to have children, not just that it would be wrong to.

_________________
This is absurd.

- Justice Scalia, dissent, King v. Burwell.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:12 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 28897
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
The meaning is unchanged. It still means (with genitive) conscious of or knowing of. Here, "a conscious/knowing parenthood"

_________________
Quoniam sapientia aperuit os mutorum, et linguas infantium fecit disertas.

http://stomachosus-thomistarum.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:36 pm 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39298
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
The meaning is unchanged. It still means (with genitive) conscious of or knowing of. Here, "a conscious/knowing parenthood"

That is what I thought, at least for the Latin (which I'm going to guess is from the editio typica -- and further guess that the vernacular translations were made before the editio typica was done, and never corrected). But "responsible parenthood" carries other connotations -- just as with comparing Catholics with large families to "rabbits," it's a phrase used by the Church's enemies.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Responsible parenthood
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:41 pm 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39298
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
"Knowing parenthood" might be, "I know that I am poor and can't really afford another child, but I trust in Divine Providence."

"Responsible parenthood" might be, "I am poor and can't really afford another child, so I will do the responsible thing and not have any more children." And I think that interpretation is what is being promoted by some in the Church today.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 14 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: