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 Post subject: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:24 am 
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Is it kee-ree-yay ey-ley-ee-son?

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:38 am 
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Not quite. Keer -- ee -- ey ey -- ley -- ee -- zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:43 am 
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(Also pedantically noting that this is Greek, not Latin, even if it's a question in Latin 101.)

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:24 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Not quite. Keer -- ee -- ey ey -- ley -- ee -- zone.

Can you meticulously differentiate from the pronunciation I guessed, so that I can have a fuller understanding?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:26 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
(Also PEDantically noting that this is Greek, not Latin, even if it's a question in Latin 101.)


No, PED didn't note this, you did. :fyi:
And this is not a question in Latin 101; It is a question in Latin for Dummies which is a subforum of Catholicism 101. :fyi:

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:21 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Not quite. Keer -- ee -- ey ey -- ley -- ee -- zone.


Wouldn't the Latin pronunciation be Kee-ree-eh Eh-leh-ee-sohn?


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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:22 am 
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And how are these different? :scratch:

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:30 am 
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Kyrie eleison in Latin pronunciation would be

Kee- ree- eh eh-leh-ee-son

Y and i are ee as in meet

e is like e in met or eh

o is like the o in for or or. (at least here it is... it is the short o sound, but the long o sound shows up, sometimes even when the vowel is "grammatically" long... the "official" guide says o as in for always, but in reality the distinction of long and short o in Latin was never lost, so in some words, omnes e.g., it is o as in for, and in others, Noster, it is o in know, or zone. And everyone is inconsistent with a few words, Dominus usually is said "doe mee noos" but many frenchies say "dah - mee.. noos" but everyone says Domne "dahm- neh")

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:15 am 
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IPA: kɪəriːɛ ɛlɛiːzoːn; Wikipedia gives ˈkɪəri.eɪ ɨˈleɪ.ɨsɒn, but I think I like mine better.

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:38 am 
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Zone sounds awfully French, like the wailing of an accordian.


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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:43 am 
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It's tough not to voice an "s" lying between two long vowels.

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:44 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:10 pm 
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Pelagius wrote:
Zone sounds awfully French, like the wailing of an accordian.

Generally the vowel sounds are like French.

The o is supposed to be like au in eau

And the long o, like tôt

If we follow the liber usualis it would be

kiriɛ ɛlɛlizɔn in IPA. I am 99% sure of that


Father's is this:

kɪəriːɛ ɛlɛiːzoːn

ə is not a sound in (Roman) ecclesiatical Latin. :ɛ would be a longer ɛ and that is probably fine (same quality, just longer) o versus ɔ is fuzzy. In the Liber it gives only ɔ for o, but as I noted really the long o is kept as well. But I have NEVER heard the kyrie eleison said other than zɔn or sɔn at the end in a Latin liturgical context.

I know there is some variation in Greek pronunciation. Not sure how the liturgical is. I cannot find ɪə for υ (y) ῃ, but there are some other conventions besides attic and modern

If as vernacular it would be

kiriɛ ɛʎei̯son

If as Attic

kyriɛ ɛlɛison

Again, I am 99% sure of the IPA there

The wiki version makes no sense. I get that ɪər is like ear, and hence kear is what they are after, but that is not right in Latinate ponunciation, or afaik Greek

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Last edited by Pro Ecclesia Dei on Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:33 pm 
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I went with ɪər because the IPA guide on Wikipedia gives that as the "dear" -ear sound, which is how it gets said.

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:50 pm 
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I can't believe we made it this far into this thread without this being posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NDjt4FzFWY

When I was young I had no idea what "Kyrie Eleison' meant, or even this is what they are singing, and I thought it was something 'build me a laser'.


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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:05 pm 
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I was thinking that the Z + the nasally vowel gives an accordian effect.

Our pastor does tend to use French-sounding nasally vowels, e.g. "Do-o-mi-nus [vobiscum]" or "benedica-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-mus Domino." He uses an S in "eleison." Our other priest uses a z, pronouncing it, "eh-lay-zahn," but his pronunciations are very eclectic.


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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:16 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I went with ɪər because the IPA guide on Wikipedia gives that as the "dear" -ear sound, which is how it gets said.


In English, we use a lot of diphthongs that we are so accustomed to that we aren't conscious of it, and often struggle to hear even if it is pointed out to us. Wiktionary gives what you posted as the "Received pronunciation" too, so imagine a British person saying it. They don't have an upside-down e in the American pronunciation, but I also have an upside down e in my "dear" and I'm American FWIW. I don't think that's uncommon.


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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:30 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's tough not to voice an "s" lying between two long vowels.

I try to say (or sing) a hard s there, but I think it comes out soft.

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:36 am 
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I thought that the Greek "y" should be pronounced like the French "u" or German "ü".

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 Post subject: Re: Kyrie pronunciation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:37 pm 
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If you are taking a class in Ancient Greek, that would be true. In the Greek used in the New Testament era, it was probably the same. In Ecclesiastical Greek however, the pronunciation is basically like modern Greek, and upsilon is pronounced like the Latin I sound. There's a table on this page that lists out the sounds for the different letters of the alphabet.

http://www.biblicalgreek.org/links/pronunciation.php

Here's the Gospel of John in a more modern pronunciation like what was historically used by the Church.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiARlwIST-o

And someone trying to pronounce it in "Ancient Greek"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU2UyePRphw


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