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 Post subject: Ut and Cum w Subjunctive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:25 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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(I have to build up to the question.)

I was told:

1.) "Ut" can be used with subjunctive for "purpose" (in order that...) and "result" (with the result that...).

2.) "Cum" can be used with subjunctive verb in a "temporal" sense ("when", "while"), and in a "causal" sense ("Since").

3.) ANd, I was told that "ut" with the subjunctive cannot be understood in some "causal sense" as in #2 with "cum"/subjunctive.

I thought that settled my confusion until I started thinking that the "result" subjunctive clause (using "cum"...edit and correction from original post - I meant, using "ut") could also be considered "causal". So given that 3 is correct, where is my thinking off? Why cannot an "ut" + subjunctive "result" clause be considered "causal", like that very causal sense with the cum ("Since") + subjunctive?

Gratias tibi ago.

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Last edited by Dionysius on Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ut and Cum w Subjunctive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:55 pm 
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Ut denotes a final cause. Cum denotes an efficient cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Ut and Cum w Subjunctive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:05 pm 
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Dionysius wrote:
(I have to build up to the question.)

I was told:

1.) "Ut" can be used with subjunctive for "purpose" (in order that...) and "result" (with the result that...).

2.) "Cum" can be used with subjunctive verb in a "temporal" sense ("when", "while"), and in a "causal" sense ("Since").

3.) ANd, I was told that "ut" with the subjunctive cannot be understood in some "causal sense" as in #2 with "cum"/subjunctive.

I thought that settled my confusion until I started thinking that the "result" subjunctive clause using "cum" could also be considered "causal". So given that 3 is correct, where is my thinking off? Why cannot an "ut" + subjunctive "result" clause be considered "causal", like that very causal sense with the cum ("Since") + subjunctive?

Cum with the indicative is temporal use. Not subjunctive. If you use the subjunctive, you are no longer referring to a specific time but a more general set of circumstances.

So --- Cum librum scripsit, eum laudavi. --- I praised him when he wrote the book

or Cum esset episcopus, erat melior. ---- it was better when he was bishop


Temporal cum clauses are always indicative. Subjunctive is used with circumstantial clauses.

IF the main verb is present, future or future perfect then if the action in the cum clause is before it use perfect subjunctive, at the same time use present subjunctive and after it is present subjunctive. IF the main verb imperfect, perfect or pluperfect and the action is before it use the pluperfect subjunctive, if at the same time use the imperfect subjunctive, and if after it also the imperfect subjunctive

Circumstantial clauses are always cum clauses and always subjunctive. Temporal (meaning a specific time/incident) were always indicative cum clauses


But yes with the subjunctive it can mean because or since. I wouldn't say it denotes efficient cause necessarily. Be careful and look at the context. Cum + subjunctive can, in addition to being causal or circumstantial, may also be concessive (meaning "although")

Cum vir esset, flores amavit--- Although he was a man, he loved flowers. versus --- Cum mulier esset, flores amavit--- Because she was a woman, she loved flowers


Ut, on the other hand, does not express cause as such, but rather "end" (which is a type of cause). It can express purpose, command or result

Venio ut vincam - I come to conquer- --- A purpose clause

Pluit tam largiter ut diluvium fiat --- It rains so much there will be a flood. --- result clause

Mihi persuasit ut venirem - He persuaded me to come --- command (indirect)

Ut with the indicative simply means "as"

Venio ut cedo --- I come as I go

Quote:
Gratias tibi ago.


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