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Puzzled
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Author:  Peregrinator [ Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:24 am ]
Post subject:  Puzzled

Why is the Diocese of Pecs, Hungary known in Latin as Diocesis Quinque Ecclesiensis and not Diocesis Quinque Ecclesiarum?

Author:  lbt [ Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

I think Qunque-Ecclesiensis is just an adjective. It would avoid the confusion such as Ecclesia Quinque-Ecclesiensis instead of Ecclesia Qunque Ecclesiarum.

Just like the Parisian Church instead of the Church in Paris. It is a habit of many Slavic languages to use adjectives instead of using directly the place name. :)

Author:  Pelagius [ Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

Lbt is correct that -ensis is an adjectival suffix.

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ensis

So why is "ecclesiensis" singular when it is paired with "quinque" which is plural? The Latin name for Pecs is Quinque Ecclesiae. It has the same name in other languages to, e.g. Fünfkirchen in German. As far as I can discern, the two words should be taken together as one word. Hence you will see it elsewhere written, "Quinqueecclesiensis." This is then an adjective, meaning in English "of Quinque Ecclesiae" or rather "of Pecs."

Lbt's examples are good. It would be like saying, "the Parisian Diocese," rather than, "the Diocese of Paris."

Author:  Peregrinator [ Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

Pelagius wrote:
Lbt is correct that -ensis is an adjectival suffix.

Well, yes, it is the genitive, but isn't it generally used for non-Latin words? Hence its prevalence in place-names that don't have a proper Latin name.

Ecclesiarum is the genitive of Ecclesiae.

Author:  lbt [ Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

In Polish, they use Fatimski (adjective) instead of Fatimy (genitive case for Fatima).

Check the web site in Polish: http://www.sekretariatfatimski.pl/konferencje-rozwaania

I have heard the same in Russia, too.

Author:  Pelagius [ Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

You can see how it is practical here. There are other ways to make adjectives out of the word "ecclesia." "Ecclesiastical" for instance. But the -ensis suffix lets us know that its referring to a place. Otherwise, if we used a word like "ecclesiasticalis," it would easily give the impression that it is just a generic descriptor rather than the name of a particular place. When the adjective "Quinqueecclesiensis" is used, we know that this is the diocese of the place Quinque Ecclesia.

The reason that they use an adjective here instead of using the genitive case of the noun is just because that is the accepted style. For example, the official name for the Diocese of Paris in Latin is, I believe, Diocesis Parisiensis. Milan is Mediolanensis. Others might end in -ana instead of -ensis, but they are all adjectives, not nouns, as far as I know.

Also, it is not the case that -ensis is only used with non-native words. I don't know if there is any rule prohibiting -ensis from being used with a word. I did a quick Google and found this short article from a grammar textbook. You can see some various examples of words, such as "hortensis" (from "hortus," meaning "garden," definitely a native word).

http://books.google.com/books?id=jqIP_o ... CDAQ6AEwBw

Author:  Pelagius [ Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

It might be helpful to remember also that -ensis is the Latin form of the -ese suffix in English. The n disappears in other language due to nasalization. So Diocesis Mediolanensis is the Milanese Diocese.

Author:  lbt [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

-ensis isn't the only suffix. There are others.

The list of suffixes:

-anus, -enus, -inus; -as, -ensis; -icus, -acus, -icus; -eus, -eius, -icius.

Examples:

Roma - Romanus
Sulla - Sullanus
Cyzicus - Cyzicenus
Liguria - Ligurinus
Arpinum - Arpinas
Sicilia - Siciliensis
Ilium - Iliacus
Plato - Platoniicus
Aquila Aquileius and Aquileis

Author:  lbt [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

Another good example: St. Francis of Assisi is known as Franciscus Assisiens.

Author:  Peregrinator [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

What if one is talking about a place called 'Canadensis' (an actual town in PA)?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Puzzled

Canada has infiltrated PA? :shock:

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