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 Post subject: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:45 pm 
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So Hic, Haec and Hoc can be used as pronouns.

Now in the Gospel (Mt. 26) Jesus says "Hoc est corpus meum" and "Hic est enim sanguis meus"

This is interesting because the word "hoc" is neuter, whereas bread "panis" is masculine, and "hic" is masculine whereas wine "vinum" is neuter.

Does this construction rule out any possibility of the Last Supper being a symbol?

Also does a similar structure exist in the Greek?

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:52 pm 
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? All that matters is that the pronoun agree with the word to which it refers. "Hoc" agrees with "corpus" and "hic" agrees with sanguis. You can't make a theological argument from that point of grammar because all it is is grammar.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:13 pm 
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In the Greek text of Matt. 26:26.28 Christ says τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ σῶμά μου (touto estin to sōma mou, “this is my body”) and τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου (touto gar estin to aima mou, “for this is my blood”). The relevant words are τὸ σῶμά (lit. ‘the body’) and τὸ αἷμά (lit. ‘the blood’), both of which are neuter (both the noun and the article).

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:25 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
? All that matters is that the pronoun agree with the word to which it refers. "Hoc" agrees with "corpus" and "hic" agrees with sanguis. You can't make a theological argument from that point of grammar because all it is is grammar.


But if Christ were holding up bread would it not be "Hic (panis) est corpus meum"? Since a pronoun agrees with its antecedent, which in this case is what Christ is holding in his hand.

I was wondering if Greek had the same demonstrative pronoun gender thing that the Latin does.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:48 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
In the Greek text of Matt. 26:26.28 Christ says τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ σῶμά μου (touto estin to sōma mou, “this is my body”) and τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου (touto gar estin to aima mou, “for this is my blood”). The relevant words are τὸ σῶμά (lit. ‘the body’) and τὸ αἷμά (lit. ‘the blood’), both of which are neuter (both the noun and the article).


Yet the demonstrative pronoun used in both instances is neuter, the "this" Christ is holding up is refered to with τοῦτό (sic) and τοῦτο (the page I found on demonstrative pronouns does not have an accent of the omicron in the first word, but I'm not a Greek scholar so I copied it as you typed it)

But ἄρτος (bread) is masculine, and οἶνος (wine) is also masculine. So it would appear the "this" must agree with its antecedent which is not bread or wine in either case.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:43 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
? All that matters is that the pronoun agree with the word to which it refers. "Hoc" agrees with "corpus" and "hic" agrees with sanguis. You can't make a theological argument from that point of grammar because all it is is grammar.


But if Christ were holding up bread would it not be "Hic (panis) est corpus meum"? Since a pronoun agrees with its antecedent, which in this case is what Christ is holding in his hand.

Why would He say, "This bread is My Body"? It isn't bread.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:04 pm 
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Bagheera wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
? All that matters is that the pronoun agree with the word to which it refers. "Hoc" agrees with "corpus" and "hic" agrees with sanguis. You can't make a theological argument from that point of grammar because all it is is grammar.


But if Christ were holding up bread would it not be "Hic (panis) est corpus meum"? Since a pronoun agrees with its antecedent, which in this case is what Christ is holding in his hand.

Why would He say, "This bread is My Body"? It isn't bread.
My thought exactly. The articles hoc (neuter) and hic (masculine) refers, respectively, to corpus (neuter) and sanguis (masculine), not to panem (panis, masculine) or calicem (calix, masculine).

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:52 pm 
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I could say: "Haec est domus Domini" - This is the house of the Lord.

Domus is feminine, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:13 pm 
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Bagheera wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
? All that matters is that the pronoun agree with the word to which it refers. "Hoc" agrees with "corpus" and "hic" agrees with sanguis. You can't make a theological argument from that point of grammar because all it is is grammar.


But if Christ were holding up bread would it not be "Hic (panis) est corpus meum"? Since a pronoun agrees with its antecedent, which in this case is what Christ is holding in his hand.

Why would He say, "This bread is My Body"? It isn't bread.


My point is that the grammar rules out the possibility of Christ's word not being literal.

For if the "bread" was a symbol, the gender would not change.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:35 pm 
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Grammar just doesn't work that way. Sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:41 pm 
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May I be blunt? If it were really that easy to use grammar to use the point, don't you think this would have been trumpeted in every Catholic work of apologetics since Zwingli denied the Presence? Especially since all the controversialists back then spoke Latin and Greek just about as well as they did their native tongues?

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:49 pm 
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I should also mention, as a secondary point, that the grammar of the New Testament is not always textbook-standard quality.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:47 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
For if the "bread" was a symbol, the gender would not change.
But the gender doesn't change. To repeat myself: The articles hoc (neuter) and hic (masculine) refers, respectively, to corpus (neuter) and sanguis (masculine), not to panem (panis, masculine) or calicem (calix, masculine).

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:13 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
For if the "bread" was a symbol, the gender would not change.
But the gender doesn't change. To repeat myself: The articles hoc (neuter) and hic (masculine) refers, respectively, to corpus (neuter) and sanguis (masculine), not to panem (panis, masculine) or calicem (calix, masculine).


Father has a point, but if I were to say "This (girl) is a poet" (bit dehumanizing in English) would I say "hic est poeta" and not "haec est poeta"?

Should not the hic/haec agree in gender with its antecedent "puella" which is feminine and not with "poeta" in the predicate which is masculine? Why would a pronoun not agree with its antecedent?

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:16 am 
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Because the antecedent (referent) is itself a referent for yet another word. That other word is feminine, but the noun referring to it is masculine, and so the pronoun referring to the noun is masculine. IOW, the gender of references is not transitive.

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:26 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Because the antecedent (referent) is itself a referent for yet another word. That other word is feminine, but the noun referring to it is masculine, and so the pronoun referring to the noun is masculine. IOW, the gender of references is not transitive.


Ergo "hic est poeta"?

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 Post subject: Re: Hoc est Corpus Meum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:01 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Because the antecedent (referent) is itself a referent for yet another word. That other word is feminine, but the noun referring to it is masculine, and so the pronoun referring to the noun is masculine. IOW, the gender of references is not transitive.


Ergo "hic est poeta"?
I think that you might have a hard time imagining what it is like to speak or write a highly gendered language, being an English speaking person. (For the record, this was not an insult or any of the sort.) Using a highly gendered language myself (Norwegian, specifically ‘nynorsk’), I just ‘feel’ that the word coming after should ‘steer’ the gender. Let’s say that I inherited a football from my late Grandfather, and years later picked it up and showed it to my own grand kids, saying “this is one of my dearest heirlooms.” Now, in Norwegian ‘football’ (‘fotball’) is masculine, while ‘heirloom’ (‘arvestykke’) is feminine. But I would never in a million years say “denne [masculine] er ein [‘one,’ masculine] av mine kjæraste arvestykke.” No, I would say “dette [feminine] er ei/eit [‘one,’ feminine] av mine kjæraste arvestykke.”

It’s hard to explain, but I just feel in my bones that it would be wrong to use the gender of the football (masculine) for the article or preposition, because these ultimately points towards the word ‘heirloom,’ not ‘football.’

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