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 Post subject: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:54 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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I've noticed some books in Latin use "eius" and some use "ejus".

Which came first? Why is there a difference with the "j" and "i"?

(Can you give me a brief history lesson in 4 sentences or less?)

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:36 am 
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"J" is not really a Latin letter. It is a late arrival on the scene, and it's used to indicate when "i" is functioning more as a consonant than a vowel.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:38 am 
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The original Latin alphabet does not contain J, U, and W. The letter C originally was pronounced as a G. Then, C replaces a K, and a new letter G added. K is now rarely used except for few words like Kalendae, Karthago, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:50 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"J" is not really a Latin letter. It is a late arrival on the scene, and it's used to indicate when "i" is functioning more as a consonant than a vowel.
Didn't know that. Way cool. When did the change happen?

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:53 am 
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Highlander wrote:
Didn't know that.


Have you seen 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade'? A crucial part of the story hinges on the fact that classical Latin doesn't have a J. That's the only reason I know it.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:57 am 
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Highlander wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"J" is not really a Latin letter. It is a late arrival on the scene, and it's used to indicate when "i" is functioning more as a consonant than a vowel.
Didn't know that. Way cool. When did the change happen?

Sometime around 1600, it would seem.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:58 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"J" is not really a Latin letter. It is a late arrival on the scene, and it's used to indicate when "i" is functioning more as a consonant than a vowel.
Didn't know that. Way cool. When did the change happen?

Sometime around 1600, it would seem.
Thank you. Its amazing what I think is cool.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:18 pm 
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From Latin Wikipedia http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/J :

Historia

J littera a littera I orta est.

Iam tempore Romanorum, a tempore Sullae, littera I duas formas habebat, alteram breviorem longiorem alteram. Longior littera adhibebatur prius ad indicandam longiorem vocalem in pronuntiatu (e.gr. in DIVOS). Mox vero cœpit adhiberi etiam ut initialis (e.gr. in IMPERATOR). Denique etiam ad consonantem notandam (eg. in EIVS). Virtus enim distinctiva harum duarum formarum est antiquissima.

In inscriptionibus epigraphicis, I longa sursum tantum eminebat. In manuscriptis vero palaeographicis, I longa et sursum et deorsum I brevem exuperabat. Haec I longa cursiva est in origine modernae formae J, quam Itali adhuc appellant i lunga (sicut rotundior forma cursiva litterae V est in origine modernæ formae U, quae tamen distantia formarum in tempore Romano carebat ullá virtute distinctivá).

J littera accepit punctum eodem tempore atque I littera, saeculo XI.

Sunt qui dicant litteram J primum a Petro Ramo saeculo XVI distinctam esse.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:00 am 
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1.) Was ecclesiastical Latin derived from classical Latin?


2.) Did the Church ever use classical Latin at any point in time?

(I'm not sure if these questions are even valid; just trying to learn a little history of them both.)

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Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:12 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"J" is not really a Latin letter. It is a late arrival on the scene, and it's used to indicate when "i" is functioning more as a consonant than a vowel.
Didn't know that. Way cool. When did the change happen?

Sometime around 1600, it would seem.


Would then the Clementine Vulgate use "j" ?

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"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon


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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:23 am 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
1.) Was ecclesiastical Latin derived from classical Latin?

No. The division between classical Latin and ecclesial Latin seems to be rather arbitrary anyway. Some writers used the "classical" vocabulary, while others used the larger "ecclesial" vocabulary.

Quote:
2.) Did the Church ever use classical Latin at any point in time?

Yes, in Card. Bea's translation of the Psalter. :laughhard

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:43 am 
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SemperFidelis wrote:
Would then the Clementine Vulgate use "j" ?

That depends on the printer.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:29 am 
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Which of "IESUS" or "JESUS" would you prefer?

Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) might use "IESUS" when he issued the declaration "Dominus Iesus" in Latin:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... us_lt.html

In Greek, there is no "J" at all. So we write:

Ἰησοῦς

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:05 pm 
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lbt wrote:
Which of "IESUS" or "JESUS" would you prefer?

Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) might use "IESUS" when he issued the declaration "Dominus Iesus" in Latin:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congr ... us_lt.html

In Greek, there is no "J" at all. So we write:

Ἰησοῦς


ibt, do you understand koine greek?

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:46 am 
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A little. I only have NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE ET LATINE from Libreria Editrice Vaticana.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:12 pm 
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It's all Greek to me. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: What's the difference between...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:46 pm 
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ghall512 wrote:
It's all Greek to me. :fyi:


Σε ευχαριστώ πολύ (Greek for "Thank you very much").

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