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 Post subject: Go Tell it on the Mountain Responsorial
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:36 pm 
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I was visiting a parish in North Carolina this weekend, and there were printed sheets that were used rather than a missalette.

I was concerned when I looked down and saw that, during the Liturgy of the Word, "Go tell it on the mountain, over the hill, and everywhere/Go tell it on the mountain, that Jesus Christ is born," was listed as the "RESPONSORIAL."

I was quite sure that the GIRM forbids this kind of substitution (61). Am I misunderstanding what the GIRM allows and does not allow? I thought only approved psalms and antiphons were allowed, and that other hymns and songs were not.

Thanks for any insight.

Dani

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:43 pm 
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The responsorial is a Psalm, 'Go Tell it on the Mountain' is a nice song, but it is hardly a Psalm, as such, to use it in place of a Psalm is completely inappropriate....

It never ceases to amaze me the depth and variety of all these liturgical abuses, their endless creativity. And of course, they will justify it all by saying 'well, there is no rule against it', as if it is possible to create a little rule about every possible abuse! In the same way, I am sure that the McDonald's employee handbook probably doesn't have an explicit rule forbidding employees from throwing Big Mac's on the floor and dancing a jig over them before serving them to customers, but really, do we NEED one?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:34 pm 
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Ah,Doom, but there is a rule against it:

GIRM #61

"In the dioceses of the United States of America, the following may also be sung in place of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary for Mass: either the proper or seasonal antiphon and Psalm from the Lectionary, as found either in the Roman Gradual or Simple Gradual or in another musical setting; or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of the psalms and antiphons, including psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the responsorial Psalm.

RS #62"

"[62.] It is also illicit to omit or to substitute the prescribed biblical readings on one’s own initiative, and especially “to substitute other, non-biblical texts for the readings and responsorial Psalm, which contain the word of God"

I has a rather heated debate with the Music director at my last parish to no avail. That was just before he went to the karaoke Mass.

Pax Christi

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:40 pm 
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Thanks, Doom. I was wondering if I had been nitpicky or if I had misunderstood the GIRM.

This was a parish wherein people actually left their seats to stretch across the aisle to hold hands during the Our Father. We did not, and it made us rather uncomfortable that this method of handholding really made us stick out like sore thumbs for not handholding.

What seemed even worse to me was that after the doxology (Per Ipsum) at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, there were things added to the "Amen." The parishioners said, "Amen," and the cantor would sing something folksy about Christ being born, the parishioners would sing "Amen" again, and so forth. DH and I didn't know what to do. Should we keep saying Amen? Should we not say Amen after all the cantor's interjections? It was just odd.

Dani

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During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:03 pm 
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Dani - Were you in Decatur Alabama by any chance? :D That seems to be the norm at the parish that is supposed to be our parish.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:13 pm 
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Yes - that's the part of the GIRM that I was thinking of. Even my DH, who has never read the GIRM knew that what was happening was wrong. He just KNEW.

Teacher wrote:

I has a rather heated debate with the Music director at my last parish to no avail. That was just before he went to the karaoke Mass.


:huh karaoke mass? Wow. That's...ummm...wow...

Dani

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During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:18 pm 
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Karaoke Mass? For real? Do I dare ask what a Karaoke Mass is?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:26 am 
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Karaoke Mass? Ugh. They are everywhere. Just kill me now somebody.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:54 am 
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Karaoke Mass is a Mass where the words to the hymns are projected onto a screen or, in the case of my former parish, the walls of the Church so they save money on hymnals. In my case it was to save money on paper since the music director usually wrote his own hymns and new songsheets had to be printed every week.

Pax Christi

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:40 am 
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Teacher wrote:
Karaoke Mass is a Mass where the words to the hymns are projected onto a screen or, in the case of my former parish, the walls of the Church so they save money on hymnals. In my case it was to save money on paper since the music director usually wrote his own hymns and new songsheets had to be printed every week.

Pax Christi


Ah. The parish that my daughter's Catholic school (for a whole 4 months) was part of did this. It was very strange. I wasn't fond of it.

Of course the Ash Wednesday Mass for the school where the priest said, at the imposition of the ashes, "Be a good friend to Jesus" wasn't thrilling either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:05 am 
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Ick! That sounds dreadful!!!

Dani

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During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:26 pm 
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Dani,

What parish was this?

I was just at the cathedral in Raleigh last Sunday---I felt like a Protestant. "Go Tell It on the Mountain" was showcased there too, though I must admit it was at least better than the Marty Haugen stuff that littered the rest of the "celebration."

The priest was providing personal commentary as the liturgy rolled along, even cracking jokes at times.

Lots of noise, clapping and applause, all altar girls, and an army of "eucharistic ministers." It was pretty jarring to see and hear all this in a cathedral church.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:39 pm 
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Teacher wrote:
Ah,Doom, but there is a rule against it:




That is good to know, but my comment was more general, i.e. that 'there is no rule against it' is PRECISELY the excuse these people always give whenever they invent a new abuse, which as I said, they do with surprising creativity, fervor and frequency.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:54 pm 
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Sometimes, even if there is a rule, they invent new abuses :(

And they cal always give you a "good reason" (even if it makes no sense). From my discussion with the MD in my old parish:

" The Sunday psalms give us a wonderful opportunity to sing and pray
together, but psalms change quickly and many of the Sunday gradual texts do
not have have a coresponding musical setting or we do not posess one in our
library. In that case, I must then compose one and teach it in time for
rehearsal or decide not to sing the psalm that weekend."

" You are correct inso far as the letter of what you say. But there is more. The heart of the
message includes the ideal that "as a rule the responsorial psalm should be sung".

In the end, we need both letter and heart, but only the heart of the message need endure,"


Pax Christi

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:20 pm 
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Quote:
What seemed even worse to me was that after the doxology (Per Ipsum) at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, there were things added to the "Amen." The parishioners said, "Amen," and the cantor would sing something folksy about Christ being born, the parishioners would sing "Amen" again, and so forth. DH and I didn't know what to do. Should we keep saying Amen? Should we not say Amen after all the cantor's interjections? It was just odd.



Sounds like the 'Amen' from Lilies of the Field:

"A-a-ay-men
See the baby
A-a-ay-men
wrapped in the manger
A-a-ay-men
On Christmas morning
A-ay-men. Aaymen Aaymennnn!"

The movie is great. One of my all time favorites.

But using the song is a common abuse, probably an attempt to 'spice things up.'
Not at all appropriate for Mass, but not uncommon. I remember hearing it at the parish I grew up in 30 years ago, and I have also heard it done within the past few years. The GIRM also says that we are not to add to or change the liturgical texts and this includes the Amen. Can't give you the exact place. But the prohibition againsts messing with liturgical texts has been stated several times in several different documents over the last few decades.

I highly recommend the movie!

I highly recommend not using music like this at the Mass.

I speak as a pastoral musician who cut his teeth on music like this Guess you could say that I am familiar with the disease. A difficult thing to cure, because most people, even people who believe in all the the teachings of the Church on faith and morals, don't see anything wrong with music like this. They only grasp certain integral aspects of the Liturgy, such as the Real Presence of our Lord, but they have been poorly catechized about other integral aspects, such as the Sacrifice, the place of the Scriptures in the Mass (not just during the readings), ecclesiality, silence.

Every year I grow in my understanding of what our celebrations of the Liturgy should be, and while its thrilling for me personally to grow in that understanding and to share it with others - this is stuff I should have already known.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:44 am 
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Baeda Venerabilis wrote:
Dani,

What parish was this?

I was just at the cathedral in Raleigh last Sunday---




I was shocked because I was at a parish in the Charlotte Diocese, and from the items that I've read by their Bishop, he certainly doesn't seem the type to allow such nonsense. I'm actually rather a fan of his articles and I hope to meet him one day.

I don't have any personal experience with the diocese that you were in, but Juststartn is in that diocese, I think. She's expressed a certain level of discontent with some of the liturgical happenings around there.

Dani

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During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:56 pm 
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was it saint marys in greensboro?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:28 am 
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Nope. 'Twas St. Francis of Assisi in Lenoir.

The next logical question, of course, is "Where's Lenoir?"

;)

Dani

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During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:25 pm 
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DaniBT wrote:
Nope. 'Twas St. Francis of Assisi in Lenoir.

The next logical question, of course, is "Where's Lenoir?"

;)

Dani


Nope because we know how to use mapquest.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:31 pm 
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::):

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During His trials Our Lord would not respond to the chief priests (Mt 14:61), or Herod (Lk 23:9) or Pilate (Jn 19:9). Words had failed. All that could penetrate those hardened hearts was the witness of divine love, the offering of His life to the Father. So also for us — when words fail the greatest way to “win” an argument is by acts of love. - Fr. Paul Scalia

There is no law about nougatine. - Chef Stephane Glacier


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