Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 24 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Protestant Paradigm for worship
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:16 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:25 pm
Posts: 1201
Location: Wisconsin
Greetings,

Everyone speaks of renewal of the liturgy and people especially speak of MUSIC. However, there is a protestant paradigm of worship active in many, if not most catholic parishes.

We had a children's mass at school. This tends to be less formal, music is more emotional and simple, and the kids get excited about singing and responding. An older adult came up after and spoke how wonderful it was and how everyone should come to kids masses because the engergy was real worship. This was also a critique of the weekend worship which tends to be more formal, different music etc.

This is NOT Just this one adult. People define the Quality of worship PURELY subjectively-- how emotionally whipped up were the people? How did the people sing? and Respond. Quality of worship is NOT what is offered to God, but what the people do.

Have had two choirs leave our parish. This was very sad because they were all very good people. It was a total of almost 70 people. They ALL had a very protestant paradigm of worship: Worship = Singing, Worship = MY personal subjective response. Worship not God focused and worship is NOT about Offering Sacrifice To God. There is NO objective reality to Mass.

This is the big fear of Chant in most parishes. People are living in the Protestant Paradigm will NOT understand(Older people could understand).

How do we change people's ways of thinking about worship?

peace

_________________
Instaurare omnia in Christo!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:24 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:04 am
Posts: 6366
Location: "Fish-shape Paumanok where I was born"
Have you actually made this into a sermon? You should; I think it would wake many people up to realize that the Mass isn't about how it makes THEM feel, after all. Frankly, what worship truly is (and how Protestant they are being) might never have occurred to them.

_________________
BOSWELL: "Have not they vexed yourself a little, Sir? Have not you been vexed by all the turbulence of this reign?"
JOHNSON: "Sir, I have never slept an hour less, nor eat an ounce less meat. I would have knocked the factious dogs on the head, to be sure; but I was not vexed."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:44 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:59 am
Posts: 27508
Location: Archdiocese of OKC
Religion: Catholic
I think you should, too, Father. I wish the priests in more diocese would give homilies on these sorts of issues more frequently.

I know it is not easy being a priest...and my prayers are with you and all of your brothers....

Rachel

_________________
Inaction got us here. Inaction will not make it 'go away'.
I can see the Minutemen at the bridge. They knew what was coming. They waited. That is not inaction. That is ready.


I want to be like Mrs B when I grow up!
I homeschool because I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my children!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:44 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:25 pm
Posts: 1201
Location: Wisconsin
Greetings,

I think this is the reason for many people becoming evangelical catholic. They were trained to worship in this protestant paradigm of Music and sermon and worship as feeling(Actually, I shouldn't say protestant, but evangelical because Marin Luther would die if our faith depended on feelings). Of Course, Evangelicals do evangelical worship better than catholics with our hybrid masses.

peace

_________________
Instaurare omnia in Christo!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:57 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:59 am
Posts: 27508
Location: Archdiocese of OKC
Religion: Catholic
And my DH wonders why I like the TLM better.

I'll admit, I really like the singing. But I know I am not there for me and my "feelings" (goodness, why on earth does it always have to be about ME, and what *I*can get out of my time at Mass?!?!)

Blech.

Sorry Father. I just wish more priests would encourage the thinking beyond ourselves and what we get out of things mentality.

Rachel

_________________
Inaction got us here. Inaction will not make it 'go away'.
I can see the Minutemen at the bridge. They knew what was coming. They waited. That is not inaction. That is ready.


I want to be like Mrs B when I grow up!
I homeschool because I've seen the village, and I don't want it raising my children!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:01 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:23 am
Posts: 19266
Location: NYC area
Religion: Catholic
Taste in music is such an individual thing. The Church can certainly regulate it if it chooses to, but they can't force someone to like what is not to their taste. If the Church changes the music, I for one will simply not sing any longer. Silence can be worshipful too.

_________________
A modern day Shunamite woman. (2 Kgs. 4:26)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:10 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73285
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
I sang in the choir and did a few solos when I was a Protestant. Coming into the Catholic Church was a bit of a shock when I realized that the hymns and singing were different. It took about a year, but I came to realize that as a Protestant I had been putting more focus on the singing and the pleasure I got from it than on God. I impatiently fidgeted through sermons. All I could think about was the next song we were going to sing or the Choir Special".

I made the paradigm shift. :D

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:48 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:25 pm
Posts: 1201
Location: Wisconsin
Greetings,

You said: Taste in music is such an individual thing. The Church can certainly regulate it if it chooses to, but they can't force someone to like what is not to their taste.

Response: Words are very individual, but every prayer at mass is scripted to a specific purpose. We have the Lectionary for the readings, and the sacramentary for the prayers. The Church has also given us the Roman Gradual for the musicians, but NOBODY even knows the Roman Gradual exists.

Music at Mass has NOTHING to do about musical tastes. I don't think we should have country mass, or polka mass, or rock mass, or Jazz mass depending on our musical preference. A person does NOT have to like chant or listen to it for fun to have it at mass.

Contemporary Christian music is GREAT for listening to in the car, or while we are working or even for our personal prayer and private spirituality, but I don't think singing a religiously themed Faith Hill Song should be at Mass.

peace

_________________
Instaurare omnia in Christo!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:05 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:23 am
Posts: 19266
Location: NYC area
Religion: Catholic
TP wrote:
Greetings,

You said: Taste in music is such an individual thing. The Church can certainly regulate it if it chooses to, but they can't force someone to like what is not to their taste.

Response: Words are very individual, but every prayer at mass is scripted to a specific purpose. We have the Lectionary for the readings, and the sacramentary for the prayers. The Church has also given us the Roman Gradual for the musicians, but NOBODY even knows the Roman Gradual exists.

Music at Mass has NOTHING to do about musical tastes. I don't think we should have country mass, or polka mass, or rock mass, or Jazz mass depending on our musical preference. A person does NOT have to like chant or listen to it for fun to have it at mass.

Contemporary Christian music is GREAT for listening to in the car, or while we are working or even for our personal prayer and private spirituality, but I don't think singing a religiously themed Faith Hill Song should be at Mass.

peace


I guess your argument would carry more weight if the Church hadn't already said that places like Africa can use their own cultural influences. If chant is necessary to the Mass, then it should be sung every where. No exceptions.

_________________
A modern day Shunamite woman. (2 Kgs. 4:26)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:59 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 413
Location: Milford, CT
Religion: Catholic
Father...

Can you tell us about the lyrics of the songs in the children's liturgy? Just because they sing and get emotional does not mean that they are worshipping or not worshipping. I get emotional when I sing a praise and worship song that's tied to the Communion Antiphon. I get emotional when I chant "Salve Regina". I get emotional when I sing "For All the Saints" or "Wake Awake and Sleep No Longer" during Advent liturgies. I get emotional when I witness the RCIA candidates get baptized/confirmed at the Easter Vigil.

If the lyrics point to God, so as to address God directly, this can only be a good thing. If the lyrics are also Biblically-based, and tied to the readings of the week, again... I fail to see the problem.

_________________
Nick Alexander
Keynote, Worship Leader, Podcaster, and Catholic Comedian
Get the Lyrics to all my Catholic parody songs.
Check out the Prayer Meeting Podcast


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:07 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:25 pm
Posts: 1201
Location: Wisconsin
Greetings,

Actually, areas in Africa have been some of the BEST places FOR retaining the Traditional catholic music. Many dioceses in Africa have official hymnals that are in use in their dioceses. It is not the total free for all, do anything you want to do that is found in the USA.
peace

_________________
Instaurare omnia in Christo!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:12 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:25 pm
Posts: 1201
Location: Wisconsin
Greetings,

The problem is not in the music itself. There are a couple of different things happening in this thread. ONe is the evaluation of musical selection-- Should it be the gradual, should be english translations of the gradual, should it be any religious song that speaks of God? The other discussion happening is the protestant paradigm that MUSIC and the Sermon is what define worship. If I get emotional from the music and sermon then worship is good, and if I don't worship is bad.
This second element is the goal of the post even though it seems to be devolving into the first. Worship is NOT first and formost the music and the sermon and how they make me feel.

peace

_________________
Instaurare omnia in Christo!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:15 pm 
Offline
Eminent
Eminent
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:59 am
Posts: 16646
Religion: Католик
Cardinal Arinze, from Africa, reminds us about the Sacred Music.

The Mass Isn't Entertainment

We certainly need to teach children to sing, but don't go too far.

_________________
ABORTUS NECNON INFANTICIDIUM NEFANDA SUNT CRIMINA.

Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes. (Gaudium et Spes, 51)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:26 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 413
Location: Milford, CT
Religion: Catholic
TP wrote:
Greetings,

The problem is not in the music itself. There are a couple of different things happening in this thread. ONe is the evaluation of musical selection-- Should it be the gradual, should be english translations of the gradual, should it be any religious song that speaks of God? The other discussion happening is the protestant paradigm that MUSIC and the Sermon is what define worship. If I get emotional from the music and sermon then worship is good, and if I don't worship is bad.
This second element is the goal of the post even though it seems to be devolving into the first. Worship is NOT first and formost the music and the sermon and how they make me feel.

peace

One of the benefits you have as the homilist is that you can re-emphasize this very thing in your sermons. That way, if your sermon (about how-the-sermon-makes-one-feel-good-is-not-the-focus-of-liturgy) makes a person feel good, they will immediately be thrown into some eternal mobius strip. Oh, the agony!

If the content of your homilies say exactly this, and the lyrics of the song selection (whether traditional, contemporary or blended) corroborate with the readings and message, then I fail to see the problem. I can think of far worse problems to have than if your congregation is attuned to the homily and is singing with enthusiasm.

I would gather that the ideal situation is that your congregation understands worship in the truest Eucharistic sense, and still participates to their fullest extent, interiorly and exteriorly, heart, soul, mind and strength.

_________________
Nick Alexander
Keynote, Worship Leader, Podcaster, and Catholic Comedian
Get the Lyrics to all my Catholic parody songs.
Check out the Prayer Meeting Podcast


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:29 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:25 pm
Posts: 1201
Location: Wisconsin
Greetings,

Singing with enthusiasm is good. Being emotionally touched by the liturgy is good. Being involved internally and externally is good. Defining the Mass by criteria which leaves out the objective reality of the Eucharist is BAD.

peace

_________________
Instaurare omnia in Christo!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:43 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 413
Location: Milford, CT
Religion: Catholic
TP wrote:
Singing with enthusiasm is good. Being emotionally touched by the liturgy is good. Being involved internally and externally is good. Defining the Mass by criteria which leaves out the objective reality of the Eucharist is BAD.
There's your next homily.

_________________
Nick Alexander
Keynote, Worship Leader, Podcaster, and Catholic Comedian
Get the Lyrics to all my Catholic parody songs.
Check out the Prayer Meeting Podcast


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:48 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:25 pm
Posts: 1201
Location: Wisconsin
Nick,

Example: Your music is fun for youth ministry. However, we probably should not be singing RCIA, sung to the tune by the Village people as our catechumens leave the church.

peace

_________________
Instaurare omnia in Christo!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:55 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 413
Location: Milford, CT
Religion: Catholic
I would most heartily agree! (I thought I had given this impression).

(Then again, and I don't encourage this, some priests have played "Tithe After Tithe" as part of their annual "please-give-money-to-the-church" homily).

But, that said, there are songs I have written for the liturgy, most notably songs based off of the Communion Antiphon (yet to be released on an album). And I would hope my rendition of "Holy God We Praise Your Great Name" would be embraced as well, in addition to the chants, polyphonies, doctrinally-orthodox hymns and congregational-friendly contemporary-but-orthodox-and-tied-to-the-liturgy pieces.

ETA: corrected first sentence.

_________________
Nick Alexander
Keynote, Worship Leader, Podcaster, and Catholic Comedian
Get the Lyrics to all my Catholic parody songs.
Check out the Prayer Meeting Podcast


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:16 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:25 pm
Posts: 1201
Location: Wisconsin
Greetings,

The purpose for this post is to say that if it come down that we are to use the Roman Gradual, or have Chant at Mass, the PEOPLE will NOT be ready for it. They do not have a catholic understanding of liturgy.

This is NOT something that can be fixed with one homily or an adult ed class, but this idea of liturgy becomes who we are. It is an existential thing, not just a knowledge thing.

peace

_________________
Instaurare omnia in Christo!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:11 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 413
Location: Milford, CT
Religion: Catholic
I would have to believe that, if and when the powers-that-be declare that we are to use the Gradual and Chant at liturgy, that you will not be alone in implementing this, and that everybody will go thru a trial by fire. In the struggle, there will be a character-building that you will share with all other priests you come in contact with.

In the meantime, you have a lot of tools to help people begin getting acclamated to a Gradual/Chant setting. There are mass parts that use the Latin, or use a Latin/vernacular hybrid (so people could learn what they are saying). You could incorporate some parts of the liturgy to correspond to the introit and Communion chants. You can use the Gradual Simplex or the English translation, "By Flowing Waters." You can institute one of your liturgies to be Latin-based, since Benedict XVI has opened the doors for you to do so. Maybe institute this during Advent and another change during Lent. Baby steps.

If people are paying attention to the homily, and are participating in music (however faultily they may be doing so), you are half-way there in my book. I feel bad for the parish which does not have as strong a participation level, how much harder that parish has to understand the fullness of Eucharistic liturgy has to offer.

In the meantime, be greatly encouraged.

_________________
Nick Alexander
Keynote, Worship Leader, Podcaster, and Catholic Comedian
Get the Lyrics to all my Catholic parody songs.
Check out the Prayer Meeting Podcast


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 24 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: