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Sung Mass
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Author:  TP [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Sung Mass

Greetings,

Musicam Sacram assumes that the mass will be sung and calls for all the dialog parts between the priest and the congregation to be sung before other mass parts are sung. Does any of your priests sing all his parts? If they do, are their any priests that you know of with TERRIBLE voices who still sing all the parts? Everything I read says I should be singing the mass, but I am not trained and I am very bad. Would you rather have the priest follow what is called for a sing poorly OR not sing.

The goal seems to be to SING THE MASS rather than SING AT MASS.

peace

Author:  lbt [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

A priest will need to sing clearly and loudly if he knows how. Conin Donovan of EWTN has assembled parts of the mass related to music:

Music - Different Parts of Mass

I have heard several priests sing the preface and/or the Eucharistic Prayer. I believe the Sacramentary provides the music notation for these.

Author:  TP [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:41 pm ]
Post subject: 

Greetings,

About a year ago I began to see the Doxology(Throuh him with him,......). It is getting much better than when I began. I began during lent, it was the penance for the people.

peace

Author:  mgross [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:30 pm ]
Post subject: 

TP wrote:
Greetings,

About a year ago I began to see the Doxology(Throuh him with him,......). It is getting much better than when I began. I began during lent, it was the penance for the people.

peace


Don't feel bad, we have a Vietnamese priest who had been giving us excellent penance of this sort for well over a year, and he'd getting much better. I think it must have taken some serious courage to embark on such a path!

Author:  sparky [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:02 pm ]
Post subject: 

I have known priests to sing the mass parts with a bad voice. My recommendation - see if you can have a musician work with you on the parts and learn a certain musical setting. If you know one set pattern of music, it makes it all easier for you, and for everyone else.

I wish I lived there. I'd teach you. Now is the problem that you are tone deaf or just that you have a rough sound? The rough sound can be dealt with. Tone deafness can be dealt with as well, but you'd need a trained voice teacher to ear train you.

I had one priest who sang the entire Exultet from Easter Vigil by memory. Irish tenor. He rocked.
--Ann

Author:  TP [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:07 pm ]
Post subject: 

Greetings,

Apparently I keep switching pitches. I don't really even know what that means.

peace

Author:  FotBG [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

Maybe something like this would help. I know that some of the other liturgy and music publishers also have similar resources; I'll see what I can find.

http://www.wlp.jspaluch.com/wlp/product ... desc=chant

Author:  RattleSnake [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

TP..... if I were in your neck of the woods.... I would hang out with you and teach you how to have a "functional voice." (I am a music educator).

But, to answer your question..... I would appreciate ANY priest who will try to sing. It is tough... and takes courage. And... I would also understand if a priest did not want to sing... due to "bad voice."

Author:  RattleSnake [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
Apparently I keep switching pitches. I don't really even know what that means.


You may have "tone" issues. Some people have a VERY difficult time singing in tune... or hearing a pitch.

Here is something you can do.

1. If you have a piano (or even one of those cheap electric keyboards... a casio)..... play ONE note... and try to sing it back. Using some sort of vocalization: "ah" "Oh" "oooooh" "mmmmm" "laaaa"

2. Find your "vocal range" from the piano. Most likely you are a Tenor, Baritone, or Bass. STAY IN YOUR RANGE.

This excersice will develope your EAR. After much of this... you will be able to "carry a tune."

Author:  sparky [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:11 pm ]
Post subject: 

TP wrote:
Greetings,

Apparently I keep switching pitches. I don't really even know what that means.

peace


Okay...here's a quick and dirty description of what's going on.

A song is written in a series of complimentary tones called a "key." The key forms the whole basis of a piece, and sometimes a song will purposely include a change in key to bring a special change in the piece, either a dramatic shift or a climax.

What you're doing, without knowing it, is changing the complimentary pattern of a song by starting in one key and shifting to another.

I hope that makes sense.

Now - why that happens is more based in how you perceive sound. You are not hearing a center of a tone, you are hearning the harmonics of the tone - for every tone is made up of several other tones (I know, this is getting really technical, but it helps to understand this). As a result, you sing the harmonics, not the tone itself. And because you don't sing the proper tone, you disturb the complimentary makeup of tones for the piece, i.e. you go "off key."

Now, can someone who perceives musical tones this way be trained to hear the center of the tone? Yes. It's called ear training, and music programs across the country have classes and private instruction that do just this. My guess is, a little rooting around and you can find a voice teacher who can ear train you to sing on pitch most of the time.

Anyway, I hope I didn't confuse you more. Without hearing what you do, it's hard for me to tell you how to fix it, but I'm giving it my best guess.
--Ann

Author:  TP [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:22 pm ]
Post subject: 

Greetings,

I am a second tenor. I know that much.

There is a video game that my neice has. There are songs and each person has to sing the song. As they sing it measures the music. If you stray then it leaves the line and you loose points. Who ever sings the song most perfectly wins the game. It is an entire game about hitting notes at the right time and keeping pitch. I saw a group of apparently tone deaf teen girls begin playing this game. When I returned 2 hours later, they were singing most beautifully. I suppose that is what constant feedback does for a person. Perhaps I should sit and play that game, but then I would have to sing really stupid pop songs. I always thought that this game would be great for my cantors especially if it had religious music and psalms.

peace

Author:  sparky [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:23 pm ]
Post subject: 

BTW - to further add to what Rattlesnake is saying. If you sit at a piano and play a tone and try to sing it back--when you're not on pitch you should hear a...hm....how do I describe it...an almost wavering in the sound. It will not sound unified. If you raise and/or lower your voice to match the tone, you'll suddenly hear that wavering stop when you hit the proper tone - there'll be a sense of unity and a lack of wavering in sound.

It's really hard to describe without demonstrating. :?
--Ann

Author:  sparky [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:25 pm ]
Post subject: 

TP wrote:
Greetings,

I am a second tenor. I know that much.

There is a video game that my neice has. There are songs and each person has to sing the song. As they sing it measures the music. If you stray then it leaves the line and you loose points. Who ever sings the song most perfectly wins the game. It is an entire game about hitting notes at the right time and keeping pitch. I saw a group of apparently tone deaf teen girls begin playing this game. When I returned 2 hours later, they were singing most beautifully. I suppose that is what constant feedback does for a person. Perhaps I should sit and play that game, but then I would have to sing really stupid pop songs. I always thought that this game would be great for my cantors especially if it had religious music and psalms.

peace


This is exactly what you need. Yes. This is what pretty much what ear training does! :) A live teacher would have you raise and lower your voice to create that unity I just describe so you can hear the difference between being on pitch and not. But this game sounds like it would help.
--Ann
PS: BTW - if you believe you're second tenor, you're probably really a baritone. The most common natural male voice is baritone.

Author:  FotBG [ Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:43 pm ]
Post subject: 

I don't mean to totally take the thread further into the subject of intonation, but....

Here's an example of how we may or may not develop an 'ear.' I once auditioned two singers for a youth choir I was directing. They were twin sisters and huge Beatles fans. They couldn't match a pitch to save their lives. I would play a key on the piano and they would sing an entirely different pitch. I would play the pitch that they had just sung on the piano and ask them to repeat the note they had sung and they would sing something different. Without accompanying them I would ask them to repeat a pitch they had just sung, again they would sing something different. Popular 'Glory and Praise' songs: ditto. Simple popular tunes like 'Jingle Bells' or "Happy Birthday to You": no luck there either. They were getting frustrated, so I said. Sing a Beatles song for me. They sang a cappella, flawlessly one of the Beatles' songs. I had learned to play alot of Beatles songs by ear from the recordings so I new what key most of the songs were in. While they were still singing I began to accompany them in the same key the song was originally recorded in and they matched perfectly. We did the same thing with a few more Beatles songs - flawlessly done each time.

What does that mean. I'm not sure. But using what they already knew as a point of reference, we began to do some simple pitch matching exercises and by the end of the semester they were ready to join the choir.

Author:  Adonais [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:23 am ]
Post subject: 

sparkybrown wrote:

I had one priest who sang the entire Exultet from Easter Vigil by memory. Irish tenor. He rocked.
--Ann


There is nothing, IMHO, like hearing the Exultet sung well. :cloud9:

I find I'm hearing the Preface sung more in recent years. It's a welcome development, though it can be jarring to note the mismatch when the Sanctus is taken from one of these contemporary Masses. It would really be nice to have some guidelines for composers.

Author:  Theodora [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:28 am ]
Post subject: 

I know our seminary has voice lessons. Do you have anything like that in your area TP? I was talking to one of the seminarians in my Spirituality class, about his classes. He told me he was taking 6 classes, plus a vocal class. He added that all the seminarians have to join choir, or take vocal lessons. With a grin, he added that he was advised to take vocal lessons.

BTW, I think it's great that you want to do this :clap: And even if you don't take vocal lessons - we're supposed to make a joyful noise, not a beautiful noise, right? ;)

Author:  sparky [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:07 am ]
Post subject: 

Friend of the Bridegroom wrote:
I don't mean to totally take the thread further into the subject of intonation, but....

Here's an example of how we may or may not develop an 'ear.' I once auditioned two singers for a youth choir I was directing. They were twin sisters and huge Beatles fans. They couldn't match a pitch to save their lives. I would play a key on the piano and they would sing an entirely different pitch. I would play the pitch that they had just sung on the piano and ask them to repeat the note they had sung and they would sing something different. Without accompanying them I would ask them to repeat a pitch they had just sung, again they would sing something different. Popular 'Glory and Praise' songs: ditto. Simple popular tunes like 'Jingle Bells' or "Happy Birthday to You": no luck there either. They were getting frustrated, so I said. Sing a Beatles song for me. They sang a cappella, flawlessly one of the Beatles' songs. I had learned to play alot of Beatles songs by ear from the recordings so I new what key most of the songs were in. While they were still singing I began to accompany them in the same key the song was originally recorded in and they matched perfectly. We did the same thing with a few more Beatles songs - flawlessly done each time.

What does that mean. I'm not sure. But using what they already knew as a point of reference, we began to do some simple pitch matching exercises and by the end of the semester they were ready to join the choir.


They'd listened to the Beatles songs so much that their ears were trained to it. And they picked the pitch - you followed them. They were tuned to the song they'd heard and you tuned to them.

Sounds to me like they could be ear trained, though it can be a frustrating process.
--Ann

Author:  matteo d'basio [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:01 am ]
Post subject: 

Priests who have been in formation in the last 15 years or so are really at a disadvantage to those of a generation earlier. In the 'old days' the men were 'lifers' and often began minor seminary in the 9th or 10th grade. That may not be a workable system now, and certainly it had its absurdities even at that time. But it did allow for the study of music and art in a seminary. Now, with most seminarians being older at the start, everything is geared to bringing them quickly up to speed in philosophy and basic catechetics, and then going into theological studies. There is no time available to study music, art, literature or the other topics that make one a well rounded person. [Well, some of us are well rounded, but waist size is not quite the same, is it?]

Author:  TP [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:04 pm ]
Post subject: 

Greetings,

Every time the lottery gets over 200 million, I buy one ticket if I can remember. That means I normally spend 1 dollar every year or so on this 'Stupid Tax'. I was day dreaming today, because I bought my one ticket a year, and I thought what would I do with the money. I would teach Music and chant from the first day of catholic school so they would understand.

There was a lot of others things, but that was one.

peace

Author:  Edward Pothier [ Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

matteo d'basio wrote:
Priests who have been in formation in the last 15 years or so are really at a disadvantage to those of a generation earlier. In the 'old days' the men were 'lifers' and often began minor seminary in the 9th or 10th grade. That may not be a workable system now, and certainly it had its absurdities even at that time. But it did allow for the study of music and art in a seminary. Now, with most seminarians being older at the start, everything is geared to bringing them quickly up to speed in philosophy and basic catechetics, and then going into theological studies. There is no time available to study music, art, literature or the other topics that make one a well rounded person. [Well, some of us are well rounded, but waist size is not quite the same, is it?]

At least now the seminarians' voice will have already changed.
(And the old castrati choirs weren't for seminarians or priests any how.)

I'm in good shape physically. Round is a shape, right?


Edward Pothier

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