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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:59 pm 
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Ye110man, A good start on finding out Card. Ratzinger's views can be found

Here

here

and here

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:01 pm 
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caleb wrote:
The entire book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, is a good source for Ratzinger's views.


I bet that it is, but not having read it myself I can't recommend it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:03 pm 
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Doom wrote:
caleb wrote:
The entire book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, is a good source for Ratzinger's views.


I bet that it is, but not having read it myself I can't recommend it.


Check the links I provided Doom. One is a very lengthy review of the book.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:06 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
Doom wrote:
lbt wrote:
ErikB wrote:
What is so wrong with the Novus Ordo? It seems everyone is so hostile to it.


Not me, it seems they're hostile to Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. These are the popes who approved the Novus Ordo Mass and still use them, even in Latin.


However, if you read some of his works on the liturgy, you will see that Benedict XVI has been devestatingly critical of the Novus Ordo, views he has held since the late 1960's.

No he hasn't. In fact the Holy Father is the one who taught me to appreciate the NO more. I thougt that he of all people would be critical of the NO. But it's quite the opposite.


I have read the Spirit of the Liturgy, the Ratzinger Report and several other works


"What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over the centuries, and replaced it--as in a manufacturing process--with a fabrication, a banal on the-spot product."

Those are harsh words. He has also said that the reform has been a major cause of ecclesiatical upheaval

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:12 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:

Those are harsh words. He has also said that the reform has been a major cause of ecclesiatical upheaval




In his 2000 preface for his book 'Introduction to Christianity' he says that the problems in the Church can never be fixed until the liturgy is fixed, which might be an indication of his program as Pope, renew the Church by reforming and repairing the liturgy.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:14 pm 
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ErikB wrote:
What is so wrong with the Novus Ordo? It seems everyone is so hostile to it.


Listen, it is perfectly all right for Catholics to disagree with the changes. That must first be clear.

In the words of Hildebrand

But when it is a question of . . . the introduction of a new missal, or the rearrangement of the Church calendar, or the new rubrics for the liturgy, then our obedience, but by no means our agreement is required.

Also, Paul VI himself lamented many of the changes he himself implemented. In one allocution he complains about the loss of the ancient exorcisms in the new rite for baptism, but then states that he trusts the experts... the same ones that wrote a rite with no mention of original sin or really any Catholic idea (there was some modification before it was issued because of concerns by some high curia officials, so it does have some mention of original sin, etc)

The Ottaviani Intervention puts it best, imo

"the Novus Ordo represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXII of the Council of Trent. The "canons" of the rite definitively fixed at that time provided an insurmountable barrier to any heresy directed against the integrity of the Mystery."

http://www.latin-mass-society.org/study.htm

Ottaviani was the prefect of the Holy Office under Pius XII. It is granted that many traditionalists go too far, Cardinal Ottaviani himself, despite his misgivings, accepted the new rite in obedience.

And, btw

up until now, there has been no attack on the NO in this thread. You talk of hostility to the NO where people are only speaking with hostility to loose translations and departures from the NO as promulgated by the Church

Why the hostility to actually returning some bit of obedience to translations and some reverence to the Mass?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:15 pm 
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Doom wrote:
In his 2000 preface for his book 'Introduction to Christianity' he says that the problems in the Church can never be fixed until the liturgy is fixed, which might be an indication of his program as Pope, renew the Church by reforming and repairing the liturgy.


The 1962 Missal sounds like a good solution.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:22 pm 
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The Phantom wrote:
Doom wrote:
In his 2000 preface for his book 'Introduction to Christianity' he says that the problems in the Church can never be fixed until the liturgy is fixed, which might be an indication of his program as Pope, renew the Church by reforming and repairing the liturgy.


The 1962 Missal sounds like a good solution.


In addition to saying that the liturgical changes caused the upheavel in the Church, in this preface then Cardinal Ratzinger also says that a universal, mandatory return to the Tridentine Mass would be 'imposible'.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:25 pm 
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I've attended the New Mass in Latin (readings in English), celebrated with the utmost reverence and bearing such a resemblance to the Tridentine Mass that I doubt any impartial observer (and especially a non-Catholic) would even perceieve a particular difference. I've seen this when I was a parishoner at Saint James, Diocese of Westminster, and at Saint Patrick's, Archdiocese of New Orleans, two parishes that have the Tridentine Mass too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:29 pm 
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Doom wrote:
The Phantom wrote:
Doom wrote:
In his 2000 preface for his book 'Introduction to Christianity' he says that the problems in the Church can never be fixed until the liturgy is fixed, which might be an indication of his program as Pope, renew the Church by reforming and repairing the liturgy.


The 1962 Missal sounds like a good solution.


In addition to saying that the liturgical changes caused the upheavel in the Church, in this preface then Cardinal Ratzinger also says that a universal, mandatory return to the Tridentine Mass would be 'imposible'.

Right, but at the same time he says that it should be wide spread

"I am of the opinion, to be sure, that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it. It’s impossible to see what could be dangerous or unacceptable about that. A community is calling its very being into question when it suddenly declares that what until now was its holiest and highest possession is strictly forbidden and when it makes the longing for it seem downright indecent. Can it be trusted any more about anything else?"

I think he sees its spread a part of the solution. Dietrich von Hildebrand thought that, if allowed freely, it would become the norm again and the NO could be phased out, but that was 30 years ago. Perhaps, even if it did not displace the NO completely, its presence would influence the new rite in a good way?

Whatever solution is eventualy applied to the problem, one thing I think is certain... we must kill the constant need to change things. When we have new rubrics and postures every few years it destroys an sense of continuity. As Frank Sheed said, "love of change is a disease of the soul". Whether the answer is the reform of the reform or a whole reversion to the Old Rite, it has to put a final note on the whole thing

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:31 pm 
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caleb wrote:
I've attended the New Mass in Latin (readings in English), celebrated with the utmost reverence and bearing such a resemblance to the Tridentine Mass that I doubt any impartial observer (and especially a non-Catholic) would even perceieve a particular difference.

So have I... it can quite lovely, even if I still prefer the TLM

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:32 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Right, but at the same time he says that it should be wide spread

"I am of the opinion, to be sure, that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it. It’s impossible to see what could be dangerous or unacceptable about that. A community is calling its very being into question when it suddenly declares that what until now was its holiest and highest possession is strictly forbidden and when it makes the longing for it seem downright indecent. Can it be trusted any more about anything else?"

I think he sees its spread a part of the solution. Dietrich von Hildebrand thought that, if allowed freely, it would become the norm again and the NO could be phased out, but that was 30 years ago. Perhaps, even if it did not displace the NO completely, its presence would influence the new rite in a good way?

Whatever solution is eventualy applied to the problem, one thing I think is certain... we must kill the constant need to change things. When we have new rubrics and postures every few years it destroys an sense of continuity. As Frank Sheed said, "love of change is a disease of the soul". Whether the answer is the reform of the reform or a whole reversion to the Old Rite, it has to put a final note on the whole thing



You and I are in agreement on this I think.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:43 pm 
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1) Obiwan hit it right on the head as usual. The acclimation being removed never existed in the latin original and was an "addition" by the ICEL. It is right to be removed.

2) I am dying for a new and more faithful, non-banal translation of the Liturgy of the Hours. I love to pray it, yet I find the most difficult part is wading through their heavyhandedness. They use language to bludgeon you into a state of mental lethargy. Language can dance or plod. They make Frankenstein look like Baryshnikov. It's like there has been a pathological hatred for the poetic in the ICEL.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:13 pm 
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caleb wrote:
I've attended the New Mass in Latin (readings in English), celebrated with the utmost reverence and bearing such a resemblance to the Tridentine Mass that I doubt any impartial observer (and especially a non-Catholic) would even perceieve a particular difference. I've seen this when I was a parishoner at Saint James, Diocese of Westminster, and at Saint Patrick's, Archdiocese of New Orleans, two parishes that have the Tridentine Mass too.


The Novus Ordo is a protestantized Mass and should be done away with.
We went from a Mass that naturaly came to be, so this I ask, what did Vatican 2 accomplish that it originaly intended the Novus Ordo to bring? Was it worth it?

The pews are almost empty in my Parish, any minute now those protestants will be lineing up around the corner! Thank you Vatican 2!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:44 pm 
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caleb wrote:
I've attended the New Mass in Latin (readings in English), celebrated with the utmost reverence and bearing such a resemblance to the Tridentine Mass that I doubt any impartial observer (and especially a non-Catholic) would even perceieve a particular difference. I've seen this when I was a parishoner at Saint James, Diocese of Westminster, and at Saint Patrick's, Archdiocese of New Orleans, two parishes that have the Tridentine Mass too.



Caleb I have been thinking the same for awile. I think when most people say they like or prefer the NO, what they are really saying is that they want the vernacular. If the NO was celebrated ad Orientum in Latin, what would be the difference between that and the TLM. The propers?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:45 pm 
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Doom wrote:
This is a good place to start to learn about his thought:

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/

look up 'liturgy' and you will find all sorts of good stuff. However, when I say that he has been 'critical' of the Novus Ordo, I don't mean that he rejects or regards it as an invalid liturgy, he doesn't. He is more of a 'reform the reform' type.

I've only found Ratzinger being critical of abuses. He seems devoted to the NO though he has a few minor grievences. Certainly, he is not a traditionalist by any measure. He critisizes the TLM as well.

"Moreover, it must be admitted that the celebration of the old liturgy had slipped too much into the domain of the individual and the private, and that the communion between priests and faithful was insufficient. I have a great respect for our ancestors, who recited during low Masses the "Prayers During the Mass" contained in their book of prayers. But certainly one cannot regard that as the ideal for the liturgical celebration."


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:46 pm 
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What Custos said. An excellent post. :clap:


Last edited by alex on Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:52 pm 
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Ye110man,

Did you read the links I gave you? It sounds like he is doing more than lamenting abuses. Also what was considered an abuse at one time often becomes the norm later. One example being the removal of the high altars. Another the total discarding of latin.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:58 am 
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Ha, the RNS is now reporting--one day later--, that the bishops voted to keep the words in question. Big surpirse.

Ah, the USCCB.

**

Familiar Words Retained in Mass, at Least for Now

By Kevin Eckstrom

CHICAGO -- Ten of the most familiar words in the Catholic Mass -- “Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again” -- will remain part of Catholic worship, but Catholic bishops said the line about the “mysteries of faith” could one day be banned in U.S. churches. Catholic bishops meeting here voted to keep the lines intact, even though their liturgy committee deemed them bad theology and not in line with Vatican directives. After they voted to keep the words, the bishops decided to table the issue for now and revisit it later when English guidelines for the Mass are released by an international church commission.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:16 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
He critisizes the TLM as well.

"Moreover, it must be admitted that the celebration of the old liturgy had slipped too much into the domain of the individual and the private, and that the communion between priests and faithful was insufficient. I have a great respect for our ancestors, who recited during low Masses the "Prayers During the Mass" contained in their book of prayers. But certainly one cannot regard that as the ideal for the liturgical celebration."


He is criticising the low Mass mentality... the praxis under which the TLM sufferred. The TLM had as its liturgical norm a High Mass, what he criticises is the prevalence of the low Mass.

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