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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:07 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Catholic Cadet wrote:
Is this a strict translatioin of what the Latin actually says? If not, the bishops need to be gotten rid of.


You'll note that the issue is quite the opposite. "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again" is not even a close paraphrase of any of the antiphons in the Latin typical edition. Removing it from general use would be a step towards closer fidelity to that edition.

Does the Mass of Creation even have music for the other three responses?


So the solution would be to get rid of both of those monstrosities and go with what Rome says.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:12 pm 
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In March, this was reported to be on the agenda by Catholicnews.com. Yes, the liturgy committee of the US Bishop's conference is really reconsidering the "Christ has died . . ." translation of the acclamation. The issue of this 'adaptation' has been going around since at least 1996, so besides the use of words like 'banned,' which are sensational, what's all that 'incompetent' about the report?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:18 pm 
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caleb wrote:
lordpendragon wrote:
I think it would make more sense to forgo the indult and just do it how its meant to be done :?

You mean, In Latin? :)


It wouldn't bother me if it was in Latin. I don't feel strongly about Latin one way or another.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:24 pm 
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well all the phrases mentioned are already used in my church

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:29 pm 
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Custos wrote:
This just proves -- once again! -- that the general press should almost never be trusted to get things right in any story about religious faith or practice.


I think Custos could have ended this sentence after the word "right" and just leave off the "in any story about religious faith or practice".

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:32 pm 
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Carole wrote:
Custos wrote:
This just proves -- once again! -- that the general press should almost never be trusted to get things right in any story about religious faith or practice.


I think Custos could have ended this sentence after the word "right" and just leave off the "in any story about religious faith or practice".


Yes, as we mathematicians would say 'his hypothesis is too restrictive' :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:48 pm 
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Actually the draft translations I've seen change "Christ has died..." to "We proclaim your death, O Lord, and profess your resurrection until you come."
The other's are...
"When we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim your death, O Lord, until you come."
"Save us, Savior of the world, for by your cross and resurrection you have set us free."

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:53 pm 
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caleb wrote:
In March, this was reported to be on the agenda by Catholicnews.com. Yes, the liturgy committee of the US Bishop's conference is really reconsidering the "Christ has died . . ." translation of the acclamation. The issue of this 'adaptation' has been going around since at least 1996, so besides the use of words like 'banned,' which are sensational, what's all that 'incompetent' about the report?


You don't see gross incompetence here? Let's look at it together then...

Quote:
Catholic Bishops May Remove Familiar Words from Mass
By Kevin Eckstrom


Let's start with the title - Those "familiar words" do not appear in the Roman Missal, and never did. They were an addition to the ICEL translation -- but they may not appear, as yet another addition, in the new traslation of the Missale. If something was not there in the first place, how can it be "removed"?


Quote:
CHICAGO -- Ten of the best-known words from the Roman Catholic Mass ...


And exactly why are these, rather than any other, "ten of the best known words"? Did he take a survey? Do a study? or are we just starting off at the get-go with journalistic hype?

Quote:
“Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again” -- may soon be banned from U.S. churches under a policy being considered by Catholic bishops.


Is this anything remotely like the truth? I don't think so. We have a new translation of the Missal under review, and since the Missal does not have this sentence in Latin, there is no reason to expect it in English. This hardly constitutes a "ban" (a cheap and sensationalistic word to use here). And what "policy" is being considered by the bishops? The only policy involved here is that of accurate translation - and that is not being "considered" at all, it is at the very heart of the new translation.

Quote:
The bishops' liturgy committee said the phrase is bad theology because it does not speak of the people's participation in the Mass.


This is a flat-out falsehood. The "bishops' liturgy committee" has made NO such statement whatsoever -- nor can it, since the revisions are still under discussion. Beyond that, the basic issue has nothing to do with the theology of the phrase, but the simple fact that it does not appear in the Latin Missale Romanum, and so there is no reason to expect it in the new translation.

Quote:
A better alternative, they say, would be another familiar refrain, “Dying you destroyed our death, Rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory.”


This guy clearly does not know what he is talking about, and so he is just making stuff up. Does this statement reflect the fact that there exist several acclamations in the Latin text, and that all of them should receive proper English translations? Is any mention made here of a Latin text and an English translation at all? Nope -- instead, our intrepid reporter is inventing a scenario where the American bishops are writing an English-language Mass all on their own, with nary a glance at anything else.

Quote:
The bishops said the change is necessary to conform with a new translation of the Mass approved by the Vatican.


This is both falsehood and gibberish. 1) We know that there is no "new translation of the Mass approved by the Vatican" -- that is the whole point of the bishops' work: to CREATE a new translation that WILL BE approved. 2) Since the new translation does not exist, the bishops could not comment about what it contains -- and indeed have not; this statement that "the bishops said ..." is sheer invention. 3) According to the reporter, there is already a new, existing, approved English translation of the Mass -- and so the bishops are now about to change the Mass in order to conform with the approved translation!! Does the man who wrote this sentence have any idea what he is talking about? If there is already an approved translation, who is using it? Isn't the phrase in question part of the Mass, anyway? Why wasn't it changed when this "new translation" was made? And speaking of translation -- what does the Latin say, anyway? Or doesn't that matter to the reporter?

In summation, then, we have in this article a hodgepodge of ignorance, error, misinformation, and outright falsehood. It would seem to me that any writer who used such tools in news reporting is indeed an incompetent journalist.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:01 pm 
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Okay, Uncle, uncle! :o


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:21 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Catholic Cadet wrote:
Is this a strict translatioin of what the Latin actually says? If not, the bishops need to be gotten rid of.


You'll note that the issue is quite the opposite. "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again" is not even a close paraphrase of any of the antiphons in the Latin typical edition. Removing it from general use would be a step towards closer fidelity to that edition.

Does the Mass of Creation even have music for the other three responses?


Unfortunately, yes. :?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:59 pm 
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What is so wrong with the Novus Ordo? It seems everyone is so hostile to it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:22 pm 
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ErikB wrote:
What is so wrong with the Novus Ordo? It seems everyone is so hostile to it.


Not me, it seems they're hostile to Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. These are the popes who approved the Novus Ordo Mass and still use them, even in Latin.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:26 pm 
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lbt wrote:
ErikB wrote:
What is so wrong with the Novus Ordo? It seems everyone is so hostile to it.


Not me, it seems they're hostile to Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. These are the popes who approved the Novus Ordo Mass and still use them, even in Latin.


However, if you read some of his works on the liturgy, you will see that Benedict XVI has been devestatingly critical of the Novus Ordo, views he has held since the late 1960's.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:29 pm 
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Doom wrote:
lbt wrote:
ErikB wrote:
What is so wrong with the Novus Ordo? It seems everyone is so hostile to it.


Not me, it seems they're hostile to Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. These are the popes who approved the Novus Ordo Mass and still use them, even in Latin.


However, if you read some of his works on the liturgy, you will see that Benedict XVI has been devestatingly critical of the Novus Ordo, views he has held since the late 1960's.

No he hasn't. In fact the Holy Father is the one who taught me to appreciate the NO more. I thougt that he of all people would be critical of the NO. But it's quite the opposite.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:31 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
No he hasn't. In fact the Holy Father is the one who taught me to appreciate the NO more. I thougt that he of all people would be critical of the NO. But it's quite the opposite.




He has criticized the Novus Ordo on many fronts, including describing it as 'a non-organic development' of the traditional liturgy, which is a diplomatic way of saying that it was a radical upheavel.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:46 pm 
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Can you provide sources?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:49 pm 
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Quote:
You'll note that the issue is quite the opposite. "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again" is not even a close paraphrase of any of the antiphons in the Latin typical edition. Removing it from general use would be a step towards closer fidelity to that edition.


I see what your saying Obi, but if the article is correct, it is not being removed because of unfaithfulness to the Latin, but because it doesn't mention the people.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:50 pm 
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ye110man wrote:
Can you provide sources?


This is a good place to start to learn about his thought:

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/

look up 'liturgy' and you will find all sorts of good stuff. However, when I say that he has been 'critical' of the Novus Ordo, I don't mean that he rejects or regards it as an invalid liturgy, he doesn't. He is more of a 'reform the reform' type.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:54 pm 
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The entire book, The Spirit of the Liturgy, is a good source for Ratzinger's views.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:55 pm 
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bonaventure wrote:
I see what your saying Obi, but if the article is correct, it is not being removed because of unfaithfulness to the Latin, but because it doesn't mention the people.

I don't know if the article can be trusted. The article says "A better alternative, they say, would be another familiar refrain, “Dying you destroyed our death, Rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory.”"
But that is NOT a proposed alternative. Not even close. The proposed draft says "We proclaim your death, O Lord, and profess your resurrection until you come."


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