Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 4   [ 69 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Catholic Bishops May Remove Familiar Words from Mass
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:07 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 am
Posts: 9279
Catholic Bishops May Remove Familiar Words from Mass

By Kevin Eckstrom

CHICAGO -- Ten of the best-known words from the Roman Catholic Mass -- “Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again” -- may soon be banned from U.S. churches under a policy being considered by Catholic bishops. The bishops' liturgy committee said the phrase is bad theology because it does not speak of the people's participation in the Mass. A better alternative, they say, would be another familiar refrain, “Dying you destroyed our death, Rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory.” The bishops said the change is necessary to conform with a new translation of the Mass approved by the Vatican.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:12 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:49 am
Posts: 8982
Location: St. Francis Hall, FUS
Is this a strict translatioin of what the Latin actually says? If not, the bishops need to be gotten rid of.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Catholic Bishops May Remove Familiar Words from Mass
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:14 am 
Offline
Tazer Queen
Tazer Queen
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 9:18 am
Posts: 20573
Location: Where it is always 1895.
Religion: Catholic
caleb wrote:
Catholic Bishops May Remove Familiar Words from Mass

By Kevin Eckstrom

CHICAGO -- Ten of the best-known words from the Roman Catholic Mass -- “Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again” -- may soon be banned from U.S. churches under a policy being considered by Catholic bishops. The bishops' liturgy committee said the phrase is bad theology because it does not speak of the people's participation in the Mass. A better alternative, they say, would be another familiar refrain, “Dying you destroyed our death, Rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory.” The bishops said the change is necessary to conform with a new translation of the Mass approved by the Vatican.


Do you have a link for this?
--Ann

_________________
http://www.annmargaretlewis.comImage
http://www.catholicwritersguild.com
http://www.catholicwritersconference.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:14 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 am
Posts: 9279
The Latin is as follows:

Mortem tua annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:17 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:49 am
Posts: 8982
Location: St. Francis Hall, FUS
Quote:
Mortem tua annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.


And the literal translation for those of us who don't know Latin?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:18 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 am
Posts: 9279
Catholic Cadet wrote:
Quote:
Mortem tua annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.


And the literal translation for those of us who don't know Latin?


We announce your death, O Lord, and confess your resurrection, until you come.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:21 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:49 am
Posts: 8982
Location: St. Francis Hall, FUS
So why the heck don't they use that rather than making something else up?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:22 am 
Online
Eminent
Eminent
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:59 am
Posts: 15793
Religion: Католик
caleb wrote:
The Latin is as follows:

Mortem tua annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.


There are actually two more Latin antiphons.

Quotiescumque manducamus panem hunc et calicem bibimus, mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, donec venias.

Salvator mundi, salva nos, qui per crucem et resurrectionem tuam liberasti nos.

_________________
TRÁI TIM MẸ SẼ THẮNG.

Vietnamese - Mother's Heart Will Conquer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:24 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 12:24 pm
Posts: 1016
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Religion: Catholic
What do those mean for those of us who still don't speak Latin? ;)

_________________
Michael

From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus...
That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

Domine Iesu Christe, Fili Dei, miserere mei, peccatoris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:26 am 
Offline
Tazer Queen
Tazer Queen
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 9:18 am
Posts: 20573
Location: Where it is always 1895.
Religion: Catholic
lordpendragon wrote:
What do those mean for those of us who still don't speak Latin? ;)


Quote:
Quotiescumque manducamus panem hunc et calicem bibimus, mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, donec venias.


When we eat this bread and drink this cup(chalice), we proclaim your death, Lord, until you come.

Quote:
Salvator mundi, salva nos, qui per crucem et resurrectionem tuam liberasti nos.


Savior of the world, by your cross and resurrection, you have set us free.
--Ann

_________________
http://www.annmargaretlewis.comImage
http://www.catholicwritersguild.com
http://www.catholicwritersconference.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:26 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 am
Posts: 9279
Quotiescumque manducamus panem hunc et calicem bibimus, mortem tuam annuntiamus. Domine, donec venias. (Literal: When we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim your death, O Lord, until you come.)

Salvator mundi, salva nos, qui per crucem et resurrectionem tuam liberasti nos. (Literal: Savior of the world, save us. By your cross and resurrection you have freed us.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:28 am 
Offline
Tazer Queen
Tazer Queen
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 9:18 am
Posts: 20573
Location: Where it is always 1895.
Religion: Catholic
caleb wrote:
Salvator mundi, salva nos, qui per crucem et resurrectionem tuam liberasti nos. (Literal: Savior of the world, save us. By your cross and resurrection you have freed us.)


Darn. I was close. :) Not bad for someone who never studied Latin! :) Italian does help...
--Ann

_________________
http://www.annmargaretlewis.comImage
http://www.catholicwritersguild.com
http://www.catholicwritersconference.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:28 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:00 am
Posts: 4668
Location: Diocese of Peoria, Illinois
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
Quotiescumque manducamus panem hunc et calicem bibimus, mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, donec venias.


I know very little Latin, but here is my translation:

Whenever we eat this Bread and drink this Chalice, we announce Your death, O Lord, until You come (again).

Quote:
Salvator mundi, salva nos, qui per crucem et resurrectionem tuam liberasti nos.


Again, here is what I think is the correct translation:

Savior of the World, save us, who by Your Cross and Resurrection You have set free.

"Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again" does not translate anything in the Latin Missal, but is an original English composition that Rome has allowed us to say. Now that the Missal is being freshly rendered into English, anything not found in the Latin must get a new indult from Rome.

_________________
I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen. -- St. Polycarp's prayer of thanksgiving at his martyrdom, 156 A.D.

Baby No. 8 is on the way!

Image


Last edited by Polycarp on Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Catholic Bishops May Remove Familiar Words from Mass
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:29 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 am
Posts: 9279
sparky wrote:
Do you have a link for this?


Religion News Service

Scroll down. Middle of the page.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:30 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 12:24 pm
Posts: 1016
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Religion: Catholic
Polycarp wrote:
"Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again" does not translate anything in the Latin Missal, but is an original English composition that Rome has allowed us to say. Now that the Missal is being freshly rendered into English, anything not found in the Latin must get a new indult from Rome.


I think it would make more sense to forgo the indult and just do it how its meant to be done :?

_________________
Michael

From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus...
That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

Domine Iesu Christe, Fili Dei, miserere mei, peccatoris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:31 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 am
Posts: 9279
lordpendragon wrote:
I think it would make more sense to forgo the indult and just do it how its meant to be done :?

You mean, In Latin? :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:34 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:40 pm
Posts: 3191
Location: My hearts in Israel.
Religion: Roman Catholic
caleb wrote:
lordpendragon wrote:
I think it would make more sense to forgo the indult and just do it how its meant to be done :?

You mean, In Latin? :)


I agree. The Novus Ordo has proven to be a a failure.

_________________
Adam

http://www.latinmass.org

Pray for the Latin Rite liturgy!

Image
Prayers for baby Luukas


Last edited by Adam for Christ on Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:38 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 77328
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Catholic Cadet wrote:
Is this a strict translatioin of what the Latin actually says? If not, the bishops need to be gotten rid of.


You'll note that the issue is quite the opposite. "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again" is not even a close paraphrase of any of the antiphons in the Latin typical edition. Removing it from general use would be a step towards closer fidelity to that edition.

Does the Mass of Creation even have music for the other three responses?

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:41 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 am
Posts: 9279
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Does the Mass of Creation even have music for the other three responses?

Anyone who goes to Latin Mass and has sung the Credo in Latin--well, we know that anything can be set to music. But I agree that this proposal is good. It removes a bad 'translation.'

Actually, the proposed change--'Dying you destroyed our death, Rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory'--isn't a good translation either.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:04 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:04 am
Posts: 6366
Location: "Fish-shape Paumanok where I was born"
This article is just sloppy and incompetent reporting by someone who wrote a story without bothering to understand exactly what it was he was writing about. This just proves -- once again! -- that the general press should almost never be trusted to get things right in any story about religious faith or practice.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 4   [ 69 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: