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 Post subject: Who are responsible for versus populum?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:38 am 
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Who are responsible for versus populum?
I don't want arguments. I want to know who forced people to stop celebrating ad orientem.
People don't blame people at the second Vatican Council so who are we to blame for this tradition?


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 Post subject: Re: Who are responsible for versus populum?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:15 pm 
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Liturgical reformers after Vatican II, acting in its alleged spirit.

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 Post subject: Re: Who are responsible for versus populum?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:16 pm 
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Nobody forced anyone to do anything with the altar, there is no law saying the altar has to be oriented in any way. Some "reformers" start doing it (probably in the Netherlands, which is where 90% of all liturgical innovations originated, and when no one said anything against it, the practice spread until it became so ubiquitous that even bishops started to assume that it must be mandatory.

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 Post subject: Re: Who are responsible for versus populum?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:17 am 
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Here is an article summarising what happened in the 1960s:

The instruction Inter Oecumenici, prepared by the Consilium for the carrying out of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy and issued on September 26, 1964, has a chapter on the designing of new churches and altars that includes the following paragraph:
Praestat ut altare maius exstruatur a pariete seiunctum, ut facile circumiri et in eo celebratio versus populum peragi possit.

[It is better for the main altar to be constructed away from the wall so that one can easily walk around the altar and celebrate facing the people.] [2]

Inter Oecumenici permits the Mass facing the people, but it does not prescribe it. As Louis Bouyer emphasized in 1967, that document does not at all suggest that Mass facing the people is always the preferable form of Eucharistic celebration.

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features ... _aug09.asp

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 Post subject: Re: Who are responsible for versus populum?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:29 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Nobody forced anyone to do anything with the altar, there is no law saying the altar has to be oriented in any way. Some "reformers" start doing it (probably in the Netherlands, which is where 90% of all liturgical innovations originated, and when no one said anything against it, the practice spread until it became so ubiquitous that even bishops started to assume that it must be mandatory.

Someone enforced it

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 Post subject: Re: Who are responsible for versus populum?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:40 pm 
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Aussie is correct.

The other part of this story is that the Liturgical Movement was operating on faulty information. There was a push more historical research on the liturgy, and this fed the antiquarianist appetite.

Versus Populum was argued as a legitimate liturgical form in the early Church and some liturgists bought into this. However, some soon began to question it; I believe Jugmann first advocated for it, but reversed course (or maybe it was Bouyer, my memory is rusty).

The evidence against it was not manifested very well by the time of the council. Calls for celebration facing the people were going on decades before that, some even engaging it before it was formally allowed. It’s all over prescribed ideas through the 20th century liturgical movement.

Again, this was based on faulty historical research. Once the council came, the men in charge of interpreting and implementing the already ambiguous document on liturgical reform from the Second Vatican Council were well entrenched with this error – as were many bishops (it seems). Pope Paul VI either bought into this or was led astray, because he celebrated a vernacular Mass facing the people in 1965 himself.

EDIT: Here what I think people saw: The Pope himself is doing it, most researchers are saying it is legitimate, then combine with the excessive obsession with “active participation” – it is easy to see why everyone fell for this, and bishops enforced it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who are responsible for versus populum?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:30 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Nobody forced anyone to do anything with the altar, there is no law saying the altar has to be oriented in any way. Some "reformers" start doing it (probably in the Netherlands, which is where 90% of all liturgical innovations originated, and when no one said anything against it, the practice spread until it became so ubiquitous that even bishops started to assume that it must be mandatory.

Someone enforced it


Even the Pope cannot enforce a rule that does not exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Who are responsible for versus populum?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:29 am 
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Why don't the Bishops change it back to ad orientem?
Very few Bishops do.
My big question is this: what does the Priests want to tell md by not celebrating ad orientem? What is the message? He must have something in his mind.
Why can't we have better Liturgies?

I find versus populum very rude, do you?5


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 Post subject: Re: Who are responsible for versus populum?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:32 am 
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Doom wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Nobody forced anyone to do anything with the altar, there is no law saying the altar has to be oriented in any way. Some "reformers" start doing it (probably in the Netherlands, which is where 90% of all liturgical innovations originated, and when no one said anything against it, the practice spread until it became so ubiquitous that even bishops started to assume that it must be mandatory.

Someone enforced it


Even the Pope cannot enforce a rule that does not exist.

A rule doesn't have to exist de jure to exist de facto.

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