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 Post subject: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Whether the 1962 Missal is perfect; that is, beyond adding propers for new saints, there should have been any change at all in the Missal.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Whether the 1962 Missal is perfect; that is, beyond adding propers for new saints, there should have been any change at all in the Missal.

Yes, restoration, in maiore parte, of the pre-1955 Holy Week, inter alia

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:35 am 
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1. Whether, other than the Holy Week rites, there existed in the 1962 Missal, elements which
a) with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage.
b) have suffered injury through accidents of history, and hence have to be "restored" to accord to the earlier norm of the Holy Fathers.

2. Whether any changes should have been made to the ordinary of the Mass at all.

3. Whether the prayers of the Hours of the Office should have been reformed at all from the form it existed:
a) before the reforms of Pius X
b) before the reforms of the consilium.

4. Whether the 1955 Holy Week should have been reformed in any manner at all.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:05 am 
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There is no reason to think that the 1955 version was the final product.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:19 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Whether the 1962 Missal is perfect; that is, beyond adding propers for new saints, there should have been any change at all in the Missal.

Yes, restoration, in maiore parte, of the pre-1955 Holy Week, inter alia

QFT

Having seen both the pre-1955 Holy Week and the 1962 Holy Week, I can tell you that the former makes sense and the latter just doesn't. Palm Sunday and Good Friday are a mess in the 1962 Missal. I can't speak to the Easter Vigil since I've not seen that in either pre-1955 or 1962 versions.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:02 pm 
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There is a reason some things were restored from pre-1955 in the 1970 Holy Week

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1. Whether, other than the Holy Week rites, there existed in the 1962 Missal, elements which
a) with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage.

Nope. Again, if anything, certain things needed restoration, not cutting

Quote:
b) have suffered injury through accidents of history, and hence have to be "restored" to accord to the earlier norm of the Holy Fathers.

If we are speaking of the entire Roman Rite, then yes. The Breviary was a mess. The attempted reform by Pius X backfired, and there is a reason Vatican II was most particular about the Divine Office rather than the Mass, in its list of specific reforms.

But we should not hold as ideal the rite as celebrated say by St. Gregory. What you call injuries, are mostly additions. There is something beautiful about the old liturgical books. E.g., that the 1st Sunday after Pentecost is still there, though Trinity Sunday has superceded it since before Trent. Or likewise, that next Saturday is the 1st Sat of Lent (this is the Sat after the Ashes), and the Lenten office starts tomorrow, showing that Ash Weds was an addition, granted way before Trent.

These vestigial elements testify to both the antiquity of the rite and its organic development, and as such carry in the wake the voice of centuries of Christians, not merely those now (as the NO does) or those 1500 years ago, as an antiquarian version would.

The issues of reform were most generated by committees making bad decisions anyways... troubles with the office date back to Trent.



Quote:
2. Whether any changes should have been made to the ordinary of the Mass at all.

No.

Though it may have been permitted, ad libitum, to restore the prophecies from the Sacramentaries. NB even in the NO, many countries do not do two readings before the Gospel. E.g. Austria, just does the Epistle

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3. Whether the prayers of the Hours of the Office should have been reformed at all from the form it existed:
a) before the reforms of Pius X
b) before the reforms of the consilium.

As stated, Pius X reforms were a mistep, that exacerbated certain problems rather than solving them. But those problems were real and need addrsssing
Quote:
4. Whether the 1955 Holy Week should have been reformed in any manner at all.
No, it should be scrapped and replaced with the pre-1955 rite, though one might, e.g. encourage the restored times of celebration and a few other minor things

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:41 pm 
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I think the "restored" times of celebration were a mistake too. Having Maundy Thursday Mass and Good Friday Mass of the Presanctified in the morning makes good sense, especially if one is keeping the traditional fast from midnight. Also it allows the Mass to fit properly with the Divine Office.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:42 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I think the "restored" times of celebration were a mistake too. Having Maundy Thursday Mass and Good Friday Mass of the Presanctified in the morning makes good sense, especially if one is keeping the traditional fast from midnight. Also it allows the Mass to fit properly with the Divine Office.

Well, the actual ancient time for Easter Vigil was early afternoon, when the fire would be wont to be lit as on any other day, originally. Hence why the pre-1955 one conclude with Vespers (the post 1955 concludes with Lauds)

Celebrating Good Friday at 3 is also very traditional and fits precisely with the Office. In general, the Mass said as part of the Horarium was said at the third, 6th or 9th hours (terce, sext, none- 9, 12, 3) as those were the hours of the Passion.

One failure of "restored" times and such was the Chrism Mass. It is now a rarity to even have it on Maundy Thursday.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:40 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Quote:
1. Whether, other than the Holy Week rites, there existed in the 1962 Missal, elements which
a) with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage.

Nope. Again, if anything, certain things needed restoration, not cutting

Quote:
2. Whether any changes should have been made to the ordinary of the Mass at all.

No.


Whether there is any "good" element in the OF that does not exist in any version of the EF.


Quote:
Quote:
3. Whether the prayers of the Hours of the Office should have been reformed at all from the form it existed:
a) before the reforms of Pius X
b) before the reforms of the consilium.

As stated, Pius X reforms were a mistep, that exacerbated certain problems rather than solving them. But those problems were real and need addrsssing.


What were the problems in the pre-P10 breviary?
What changes were made by him?
How did they make the problem worse?

Were these problems solved in the OF breviary?

Is the OF breviary altogether "better" than the pre- or post- P10 EF breviary?

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:19 am 
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There were complex problems with the pre-1911 Breviary that St Pius X felt compelled to address; some due to the nature of the Catholic Church and the influx of Saints. The Breviary and Missal will be in need of reform – as the Church will be - until Christ’s Second Coming.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:48 pm 
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The church authorities should have offered a vernacular option for the 1962 missal and authorized an experimental service, maybe the 1965 instructions for the then-current missal or even something like Benedict XVI's version of the ordinary form, but alongside the old Mass, not replacing it. Most people would have been happy just to have the old service but in the vernacular. The trouble was the liberal clergy were pushing heresy and/or were self-righteous, allowing no use of the old Mass.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:44 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
What were the problems in the pre-P10 breviary?

The sanctoral cycle often obscured the temporal cycle, and the hymns had been in a bad state for centuries (since the reform of Urban VIII).

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 Post subject: Re: So what should have been done?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:49 pm 
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The young fogey wrote:
The church authorities should have offered a vernacular option for the 1962 missal and authorized an experimental service, maybe the 1965 instructions for the then-current missal or even something like Benedict XVI's version of the ordinary form, but alongside the old Mass, not replacing it. Most people would have been happy just to have the old service but in the vernacular. The trouble was the liberal clergy were pushing heresy and/or were self-righteous, allowing no use of the old Mass.

The 1965 instructions were horrid, at least as implemented

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