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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:56 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
The OF lacks all of the defining features by which the Roman Rite is phenotypically differentiated from other rites, at least when one, as they ought, considers all the options as part of the rite (EP I is a defining feature, but is inessential to the OF while as essential to the EF). Historically, they have little connection, save in, what are ironically later accretions to the Roman Rite (like the Ecce Agnus Dei)

I mean, the Missal is only part of the Rite - the Lectionary, the Breviary, the Ritual, the Calendar, even devotions, these are are also part of what makes up a Rite of the Church. Most of those things are different between the old Rite and the New.

This is true... often even more radically so (especially the Office)

I'd like to report PED for not mentioning the chasm between blessings in both the forms.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:31 am 
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I'd like to report Jack3 because the blessings are not part of the Rite of the Mass, which QP deals with.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:15 am 
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I would never report you, Father, but I want to mention that Peregrinator and PED, whom I had quoted, were talking about rites in their entirety, not limited to the Mass alone.

PED mentions the Office, which isn't properly part of the Mass. I know that some Hours can be prayed together with the Mass joined to it, but I don't know the specifics...

Lastly, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that blessings are not part of the Rite of the Mass. Even in the Roman rite Masses I've been to, I've been blessed.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:20 am 
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But the blessings at Mass are not different between the OF and EF. It's the other blessings (which tend not to be blessings at all in the newer form) that are different.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:50 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
But the blessings at Mass are not different between the OF and EF.


This was not my original point, but technically speaking, even blessings at Mass need not be the carbon copy of the other form.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
I would never report you, Father, but I want to mention that Peregrinator and PED, whom I had quoted, were talking about rites in their entirety, not limited to the Mass alone.

PED mentions the Office, which isn't properly part of the Mass. I know that some Hours can be prayed together with the Mass joined to it, but I don't know the specifics...

Lastly, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that blessings are not part of the Rite of the Mass. Even in the Roman rite Masses I've been to, I've been blessed.

The mass is part of the office.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
The OF lacks all of the defining features by which the Roman Rite is phenotypically differentiated from other rites, at least when one, as they ought, considers all the options as part of the rite (EP I is a defining feature, but is inessential to the OF while as essential to the EF). Historically, they have little connection, save in, what are ironically later accretions to the Roman Rite (like the Ecce Agnus Dei)

I haven't heard Eucharistic Prayer 1 in decades. Didn't realize that until someone asked me where I got the name for our first child. I said no actually it wasn't any of this pop culture stuff, how about the canon of the mass? I get a bunch of blank stares, including from my wife, who has probably never heard it.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
I would never report you, Father, but I want to mention that Peregrinator and PED, whom I had quoted, were talking about rites in their entirety, not limited to the Mass alone.

PED mentions the Office, which isn't properly part of the Mass. I know that some Hours can be prayed together with the Mass joined to it, but I don't know the specifics...

Lastly, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that blessings are not part of the Rite of the Mass. Even in the Roman rite Masses I've been to, I've been blessed.

The mass is part of the office.

No it isn't. I am bound to the office daily, but I could omit Mass (not that I want to).

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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Oh. Maybe no am misremembering something.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:24 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
Oh. Maybe no am misremembering something.

The Mass and Office are both part of the Liturgy, if that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Quo Primum be abrogated?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:03 pm 
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There is a way, especially in a monastery, that the Mass and Office are tied, and in some sense the Mass is part of the Office historically. But that is using office in a broader sense for something like "daily liturgy" and as Father points out, secular priests, at least, are not bound to Mass daily, so it is not part of their Officium (Office or duty)

Anyhow, I was presume that "rite" includes not just the rite of Mass, but the entirety of public prayer. If the relationship of the old and new forms were like the Liturgies of S. John Chrysostom and S. Basil, where the older liturgy (Basil) is used at certain points in the year, but is fully part of the one yearly course of liturgy, I would be far more comfortable admitting a closer connection. When the Office, blessings, rites of sacraments, not only sanctoral and but temporal cycles differ, often radically, it is hard to say that they are the same rite, except insofar as both are official public prayer of the Roman Church.

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