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 Post subject: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchanging
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:17 pm 
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... and if it's unchanging, why did they just change it ?

Ok, so I need some help here… explanation really. How does the update of a bible’s phraseology occur ? What is it that is found that creates a need for an update that relates to the quality of the verses phrased ? I can see where, if the translation could be narrowed or better demonstrated to meaning from one Greek (etc) version, but this is taking bible verses and, I think, changing their meaning ll together.

Please take some time to read what they say. You’ll need to to see the variances in phrase. I have included both the NIV and KJV bible verses as they’re currently the Protestant, represented for comparison to the new verses and what they re saying …

How does this happen. Who is in charge that says it’s ok to make these changes. How do they get away with saying :
Quote:
“In making these final changes, the Crossway board of directors and the translation oversight committee thus affirm that their highest responsibility is to ‘guard the deposit entrusted to you’ (1 Tim. 6:20)—to guard and preserve the very words of God as translated in the ESV Bible,” Crossway wrote.


They make a very big deal of whose bible is the most popular … shouldn’t it be whose bible is the best versed . Some bibles go for the literal translation … yes ? Others more of a thought or meaning ...but is it ok to have translations that seem to differ from the original’s precision or thoughtful meaning ?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleani ... rsion.html



Quote:
NIV:
 Gen 3:16
To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Gen 4:7
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”



Quote:
KJV:

Gen 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Gen 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall behis desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:10 pm 
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Several things can happen:

1) The English language changes. We would not refer to sin as "him," for example.
2) The translators make a different decision. There is really no such thing as a literal translation where each word in the source language corresponds neatly with one word in the target language, or even where phrases match up neatly. Hebrew and Greek both have a word for "the," for example, but they don't always use it where we would and sometimes they use it where we wouldn't. And if that happens for a simple word like "the" (or "and" or "or"), all the more so for complex phrases and ideas.
3) Scholars have new insights into how ancient languages work.
4) New discoveries are made which affect the base text. This is more common with the New Testament than the Old, but the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example, affected some passages where the Hebrew text normally used for translation (which dates back to about 1100 A.D.) isn't clear.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:22 pm 
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I'm curious what you see as the significant changes in meaning in the verses you cite.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:39 pm 
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Two of the ESV’s final changes were in Genesis, and evoked a slightly more complementarian reading.

Genesis 3:16 was changed from “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” to “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”
Similarly, Genesis 4:7 was changed from “[Sin’s] desire is for you, but you must rule over it” to “[Sin’s] desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleani ... rsion.html


I can see where verses can be adjusted to reach a better conclusion because of new information available (Dead Sea scrolls, etc...), but I don’t expect that information to change the meaning of the verse. I have to be missing something here … or …
Perhaps this is something I just need to get past as no big deal. The effects of the changes in the ESV are meaningless to me, as I am RSV2CE, NABRE, Knox- w/Haydock commentary or DR.

Even if I feel thick as a brick here, thanks for the help Father.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:36 pm 
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Prepositions are one of the hardest things to translate. The preposition being translated is aleph-lamed, which can mean to, toward, in the direction of, according to, in addition to, with regard to, against, into, among, near, or with. The KJV translators chose to go with "for," which isn't on the list but is in the line of to/toward, and the ESV translators chose "contrary to," which is more or less against.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:32 pm 
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I am a fan of the New American Standard Bible. Glad to see it come in at 20%.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:48 pm 
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As a grammarian and an etymologist, I concur with Fr. Kenobi's explanations. The Bible has not changed, the original language has not changed, it is modern English usage that has changed. Four hundred years ago a "nice" person was someone who was simple-minded. In today's PC lingo, we would say that a person described as "nice" in the days of Shakespeare and the KJV would not be "kind," but would be "mentally-challenged." The word itself didn't change; the meaning did.

As a kid growing up in the funky 70's, if something was "bad," that actually meant it was "good," as in "cool." I remember ads for a mood ring, another thing popular in the 70's, described in the ads as the "Super-bad party ring." They meant it was an awesome piece of cheap bling-bling. Or so they wanted you to believe.

So don't tear your hair out, ES, ol' pal. As for the validity of the new translation, time will tell. Once upon a time "The Living Bible" was all the rage. I think they have those in the junk stores next to what's left of the "super-bad party rings" on the 99-cent shelf. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:51 pm 
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The ESV is a good translation.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:22 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Several things can happen:

1) The English language changes. We would not refer to sin as "him," for example.
2) The translators make a different decision. There is really no such thing as a literal translation where each word in the source language corresponds neatly with one word in the target language, or even where phrases match up neatly. Hebrew and Greek both have a word for "the," for example, but they don't always use it where we would and sometimes they use it where we wouldn't. And if that happens for a simple word like "the" (or "and" or "or"), all the more so for complex phrases and ideas.
3) Scholars have new insights into how ancient languages work.
4) New discoveries are made which affect the base text. This is more common with the New Testament than the Old, but the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example, affected some passages where the Hebrew text normally used for translation (which dates back to about 1100 A.D.) isn't clear.



You left out the single most important reason: money.

You have a translation that has been in print for a long time (in the modern market 'a long time' is approximately 20 years) and the publishers start to worry that they have achieved market saturation so they figure a good way to trump up more sales is to 'revise' the text (which usually means making purely superficial changes that 99% of readers won't even notice) and market it as a 'new' translation.

I don't really buy the 'changes in the way that English is used' argument at all, the language changes, yes, but it doesn't change anywhere near as rapidly as Bible translators like to pretend.

To put this into perspective, the most popular translation, the NIV, was first published in 1978. Since then, it has been revised at least 4 times (1984, 1996, 2005 and 2011), the justification for the revisions has been that the 'language changed'. Really? The English language has undergone such radical changes since 1978 that the original NIV is now 'obsolete'? Really?

To put this into perspective, Star Wars was released in 1977, yet I've never heard a single young person say 'I just can't understand Star Wars, the English language has changed too much, I need an updated version."

To use another example, the Revised Standard Version was released in 1952. Since then, it has been revised three times, once in 1966 for the Catholic Edition, again in 1971 for the second edition, and again in 1989 when the NRSV was released. And if you count what Ignatius Press did in 2006 for it's 'second Catholic Edition', that's 4 major revisions since 1952. What all that revision really necessary? I don't think it was.

Other things that came out in 1952 are the classic movies 'High Noon', 'Singing in the Rain' and 'The Quiet Man'. Has anyone ever complained that those movies are impossible to comprehend because the English language has evolved too much?

So why are Bible scholars so quick to proclaim that a 10-15-year-old translation needs to be revised 'because the language has changed?'

I don't buy that argument, I also don't buy the 'Biblical scholarship and knowledge of the Biblical languages has advanced' argument. Biblical scholarship doesn't change very quickly, reference books from the 1950's and 1960's are are still in common use in graduate schools.


Sure, between 1611 (the first publication of the KJV) and 1952 (the first publication of the RSV( there were some huge changes in the English language and advances in Biblical languages in those 341 years that justified the revision.

But between 1952 and 1989 (the length of time between the RSV and the NRSV) all those factors were negligible at best.

It may be cynical of me, but I really do think the primary motivation is money.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:46 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
As a grammarian and an etymologist... :


What brought you from bugs to the Bible?

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:00 pm 
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The OP is comparing the KJV to a modern version. Language has certainly changed over that time.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:20 pm 
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TreeBeard wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
As a grammarian and an etymologist... :


What brought you from bugs to the Bible?


Well, the OP was about being bugged by the translation, no? (and of course I knew you were referring to the ancient entomology joke, silly) :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:30 am 
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Nice segue. :)

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:42 am 
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Obi-Wan: “Prepositions are one of the hardest things to translate. The preposition being translated is aleph-lamed, which can mean to, toward, in the direction of, according to, in addition to, with regard to, against, into, among, near, or with. The KJV translators chose to go with "for," which isn't on the list but is in the line of to/toward, and the ESV translators chose "contrary to," which is more or less against.”

Quote:
Two of the ESV’s final changes were in Genesis, and evoked a slightly more complementarian reading.

Genesis 3:16 was changed from “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” to “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”
Similarly, Genesis 4:7 was changed from “[Sin’s] desire is for you, but you must rule over it” to “[Sin’s] desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleani ... rsion.html


This is what I’m saying Father, prepositionally speaking, if the a-l can shown as both to, towards and also against… that is just crazy. Why use it if it’s definitional character is suspect. When I read it I see the KJV ( also supported by the NIV, NASB, RSV, ASV and others) as to or towards … in the positive (agreement with)… and now, the new ESV is using the word contrary, (against) which is the opposite of to or towards. So, as I read it the revised version is contrary to the original in any one of many bible versions and have a hard time agreeing with ...

Quote:
“In making these final changes, the Crossway board of directors and the translation oversight committee thus affirm that their highest responsibility is to ‘guard the deposit entrusted to you’ (1 Tim. 6:20)—to guard and preserve the very words of God as translated in the ESV Bible,” Crossway wrote.


How more confusion (on my part anyhoots) in no way guards or preserves the deposit entrusted to us.

And by the way, thanks Rick, I lost more than a few pounds of fanny laughing off, over your marvelous “As a grammarian and an etymologist segue :)

ps; Rick: not really pulling my hair out, just commenting on what appears to be a radical change to me. Also Father, I don’t think for a moment the ESV is not a good translation, just confused over their change of heart, and I can absolutely see Doom’s “it’s all about the cash” scenario when the changes came after original approval of “as is” verses in the ESV.

IMO, (from my reading) the changes create controversy not uniform responsibility.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:14 am 
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Quote:
Why use it if its definitional character is suspect.
I'm not following you. The inspired writer of Scripture used it because it was the best word he could think of for what he wanted to say. The translators had to pick an English word to use based on the word itself and its context.

Words don't have precise pinpoint meanings. They have what I like to call a blob of meaning (there's probably a technical linguistic term for this that I don't know). That blob covers all sorts of shades of meaning, even what might look to us like unrelated meanings. Sometimes words really do have several unrelated meanings, but even then, each of what we'd regard as a single meaning really has a blob of meaning. Hebrew words have blobs; English words have blobs; and no two blobs in two languages ever overlap completely.

There's an old Italian saying: Traduttore, traditore. It means "to translate is to betray." And that's the underlying problem here. Even when a translator is attempting to be literal, he ends up having to decide what he thinks the text means, and he substitutes one word blob for another, given the reader a somewhat different meaning than the original had.

The ESV editors decided that they'd been using the wrong English blob here.

Just for fun, I looked at the Vulgate and Septuagint for Gen 3:16. The Latin uses "sub" here, with the ablative case, which means: under, beneath, behind, at the foot of (rest); within; during, about (time).

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:09 pm 
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I would not be surprised to learn that prepositions were a major reason that the Church needed to "authorize" particular translations of the Bible.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:21 pm 
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Quote:
I'm not following you.

ES:This is what I’m saying Father, prepositionally speaking, if the a-l can shown as both to, towards and also against… that is just crazy.

I bet this solves my dilemma ... would you please tell me what these two verses mean ...

“Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you”

“Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

i think, depending on your answer, I'll be able to carry that over to the other Gen 4 verse too. .... thanks

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:15 pm 
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I can rank translations like this:

* Can't possibly be right
* Technically possible but absurd
* Defensible
* Probably correct
* Certainly correct

The ESV has (IMHO) moved those translations into the "defensible" category from the "probably correct" category, so I don't want to sound like I'm all-in on the newer version.

As for whether "and" or "but" is correct ... Look at Genesis 2:17.

KJV: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

ESV: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Each of this verses begins with "but" in English, but in Hebrew, the verse begins with the conjunction ו (vav), which usually means "and." This is the conjunction that shows up in Gen 3:16 as well. In translating Gen 2:17, nearly every English translation uses "but" because the phrase is so clearly a contrast to the one that becomes before it. So if the translator thinks that there's a contrast between the clauses in Gen. 3:16, he certainly can use "but." It's a defensible choice.

Even in English, BTW, the blobs of meaning for "and" and "but" overlap. Dictionary.com gives "but" as the 10th meaning for "and."

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:52 am 
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Obi, I really wasn't looking to see if and or but was correct, just highlighting them as further differences. what I am looking for is...

I bet this solves my dilemma ... would you please tell me what these two verses mean ...

“Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you”

“Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

i think, depending on your answer, I'll be able to carry that over to the other Gen 4 verse too. .... thanks


I am in hopes your definition of using the lines that actually were changed "for the betterment of" can be explained better with your take on their individual meanings.

ps; going to Basilica of Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupré in Quebec tomorrow and up to my butt in "to do list" today, before hand, so will not be able to respond until my return. I am looking forward to your explanation of the two lines for my better understanding. ... thanks again.

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 Post subject: Re: A popular Bible translation is now literally the unchang
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:37 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I can rank translations like this:

* Can't possibly be right
* Technically possible but absurd
* Defensible
* Probably correct
* Certainly correct

Not exactly a quotable quote, but definitely worth trying to remember.

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