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 Post subject: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:45 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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I am not trying to be Mr. Crankypants posting again of my suspicions about St. Francis Xavier Parish, a Jesuit-run parish in Manhattan, so soon after my post about its participation in the Gay Pride march (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=163565). But the "Nicene Creed" printed in the bulletin says:

~"And by the power of the Holy Spirit, was conceived by the Virgin Mary and became human."

Complaints or questions about such inclusive language are not new, and this one in particular has probably been expressed many times around the world. Yet is this an "official" abuse?

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:38 pm 
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Changing the creed............ stoopid.............. extreme............. ridiculous............. schismatic............... apostate...................... heretical....................... a jerk thing to do.............. pernicious..... could go on.

google turns up about a dozen churches within walking distance.

ETA: changing the wording of the creed doesn't have to be "an official abuse", as in, on some list somewhere. It is. Don't need a list to tell me that. You just don't do it. Like so many other things.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:15 pm 
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I'm not sure what you mean by "official abuse," but no one at a level below the Holy See can make changes to the words of the liturgy.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:18 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
Changing the creed............ stoopid.............. extreme............. ridiculous............. schismatic............... apostate...................... heretical....................... a jerk thing to do.............. pernicious..... could go on. .


One day, Bomby, you must stop being so diplomatic and tell us how you really feel. :tomatos

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:16 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "official abuse," but no one at a level below the Holy See can make changes to the words of the liturgy.



The correct wording in the Creed is:

and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:24 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
Changing the creed............ stoopid.............. extreme............. ridiculous............. schismatic............... apostate...................... heretical....................... a jerk thing to do.............. pernicious..... could go on. .


One day, Bomby, you must stop being so diplomatic and tell us how you really feel. :tomatos

I didn't feel like trying to work all that into one sentence, but felt it should be there nonetheless. Strange that by literally mincing the words I was better able to convey what I think about it. :laughhard

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:10 am 
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I can see changing for us men to for us humans, though such would be asinine.

But only an idiot or a heretic feels the need to change "and became man" to "became human". Christ was and is a man. The Incarnation is an historical reality. And we are talking about A man, not mankind. So there is no inclusiveness to be fit in! So the only rationale is extreme heresy, where the historical nature of Christianity is denied, or sheer stupidity such that they should not have been able to get through seminary.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:58 pm 
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My question is... How do these people and people like Cardinal Marx keep their position of authority within the RCC.



https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/catho ... dinal-marx

https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/cardinal-marx-society-must-create-structures-respect-gay-rights

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:15 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
My question is... How do these people and people like Cardinal Marx keep their position of authority within the RCC?



I know that you probably think that Popes have absolute power and can do whatever they want, but this just simply is not true. When it comes to the selection of bishops and cardinals, the Pope often has little real power, he is constrained by treaties and concordats, and political and other considerations have to be taken into account. Germany is one of those countries where the Pope is severely limited in his ability to select and remove bishops.

I could go into depth about Otto Von Bismarck, German unification, the Kulturkampf, and the history of Church/state conflict in Germany to explain why this, but the point is, that's the situation the Pope has to deal with.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:37 pm 
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1) Since Germany is a state with freedom of religion, isn't that illegal?
2)Are there ways to break these constraints unilaterally?

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Last edited by Jack3 on Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:41 pm 
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:scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:16 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
1) Since Germany is a state with freedom of religion, isn't that illegal?


That literally makes no sense.


Quote:
2)Are there ways to break these constraints unilaterally?



Sure, if the Pope wants to start a diplomatic crisis, the same kind of crisis which created the problem in the first place, and would likely end with Germany, or whatever nation, severing diplomatic relations with the Vatican, and destroying more than a century of effort maintaining the peace.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:31 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
1) Since Germany is a state with freedom of religion, isn't that illegal?


That literally makes no sense.

The state deciding the people to be Bishops and Cardinals qualifies as "interference of the state" and thus violates freedom of religion, right?
Quote:
Quote:
2)Are there ways to break these constraints unilaterally?



Sure, if the Pope wants to start a diplomatic crisis, the same kind o f crisis which created the problem in the first place, and would likely end with Germany, or whatever nation, severing diplomatic relations with the Vatican, and destroying more than a century of effort maintaining the peace.

Why should Germany severe diplomatic relations with the Vatican for the Church deciding on her internal matters?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:56 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
The state deciding the people to be Bishops and Cardinals qualifies as "interference of the state" and thus violates freedom of religion, right?


No, and I didn't say anything about 'the state'.


Quote:
Why should Germany severe diplomatic relations with the Vatican for the Church decide on her internal matters?


To explain why things are they way they are in Germany would literally require me to write a book, and the book would be at leas 800-1000 pages long, so forgive me if I don't have the time to explain it here.

Start with this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:18 pm 
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Karol Wojtyła's appointment as Archbishop of Krakow was negotiated between the Holy See and the Polish government. The Polish government rejected the Holy See's first choice because they thought (erroneously) that Wojtyła would be easier to deal with.

When the United States received its independence, the Holy See sent word to the new government asking whom they should consult with respect to appointments to the episcopate in the U.S., and was greatly surprised to find that the answer was, "No one."

I strongly suspect that the Holy See would work out an arrangement with the Chinese government if that would allow for the regularization of the status of the Church there.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:23 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I strongly suspect that the Holy See would work out an arrangement with the Chinese government if that would allow for the regularization of the status of the Church there.


John Paul II sent a letter to the Chinese government shortly after his election asking for 'dialogue'......35 years later, the Chinese government still hasn't responded.

But I have no doubt that if the Chinese government was to respond favorably to the idea of 'dialogue', the Holy See would be willing to concede quite a lot to the Chinese government in exchange for an end to the persecution and other problems there.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:29 am 
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I do not think that Cardinal Marx can be explained by whatever concordat might still exist between Germany and the Holy See. He is one of the Pope's closest advisers.

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:39 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I do not think that Cardinal Marx can be explained by whatever concordat might still exist between Germany and the Holy See. He is one of the Pope's closest advisers.


I was answering the question that Et Tu asked, 'why are there so many bad bishops and cardinals and why aren't they removed?' and the answer is 'because the Pope doesn't always have complete freedom in the appointment and removal of bishops.'

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:33 am 
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That Cardinal Marx is also the president of the German episcopal conference DBK.

http://www.dbk.de/ueber-uns/vorsitzender1/

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 Post subject: Re: "...and became human" vs. - "...and became man."
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:15 pm 
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The Church in Germany is very sick.

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