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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Prodigal Son of Thunder
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ThyKingdomCome wrote:
The inclusive language crowd is going to like the verse about the Holy Spirit in the Nicene Creed.

"Who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified"?

That is a good translation of the Latin Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur. I suppose one could make the case that since pronouns are lacking in Latin that it ought to be translated "He Who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified."

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Pepsuber wrote:
ThyKingdomCome wrote:
The inclusive language crowd is going to like the verse about the Holy Spirit in the Nicene Creed.

"Who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified"?

That is a good translation of the Latin Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur. I suppose one could make the case that since pronouns are lacking in Latin that it ought to be translated "He Who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified."


There are 2 versions of the way they changed that verse of the creed. First was the "official version that was taped to the inside of the missalettes:
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Breath the giver of life
Who with the Father and Son (or was it "the Creator and the Christ"?) is worshiped and glorified
Who has spoken through the prophets"

AND the way that was often said, but not printed:
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Breath the giver of life.
With the Creator and the Christ she is worshiped and glorified.
She has spoken through the prophets"

Yes, this is the way I learned the Nicene Creed. Either way, they'll appreciate the removal of "he" and you can bet they'll say that the Church knows that the H.S. is female, and that this is a gradual shift in that direction. Mind you I'm not criticizing the new version - the fact that they use "who" to refer to Jesus earlier in the creed argues against this point. But I'm still pretty sure that's the way the interpretation is going to go.

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:11 pm 
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MY SENSE OF CHARITY DISINTEGRATED WHEN I REALIZED HOW MAD OUR PARISH'S MUSICAL DIRECTOR IS GOING TO BE WHEN SHE CAN'T PLAY THE CHEESEBOX PIANO TO THE NEW TRANSLATION OF THE GLORIA. APPARENTLY A LACK OF CHARITY MAKES ME TYPE IN ALL CAPS TOO.

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:44 pm 
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ThyKingdomCome wrote:
Pepsuber wrote:
ThyKingdomCome wrote:
The inclusive language crowd is going to like the verse about the Holy Spirit in the Nicene Creed.

"Who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified"?

That is a good translation of the Latin Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur. I suppose one could make the case that since pronouns are lacking in Latin that it ought to be translated "He Who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified."


There are 2 versions of the way they changed that verse of the creed. First was the "official version that was taped to the inside of the missalettes:
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Breath the giver of life
Who with the Father and Son (or was it "the Creator and the Christ"?) is worshiped and glorified
Who has spoken through the prophets"

AND the way that was often said, but not printed:
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Breath the giver of life.
With the Creator and the Christ she is worshiped and glorified.
She has spoken through the prophets"

Yes, this is the way I learned the Nicene Creed. Either way, they'll appreciate the removal of "he" and you can bet they'll say that the Church knows that the H.S. is female, and that this is a gradual shift in that direction. Mind you I'm not criticizing the new version - the fact that they use "who" to refer to Jesus earlier in the creed argues against this point. But I'm still pretty sure that's the way the interpretation is going to go.

BTW, the current version has this

We believe in the Holy spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

Where are you getting breath?

The new one has

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:57 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:

Where are you getting breath?


I'm getting "breath" from the version that was invented by my childhood parish that is on the inclusive language train. I was just quoting their invention to show how they used "who" in the same way that the new, correct creed also uses "who." That's why I think that crowd will like that verse. It is more like the way they like it than the old version. Sorry if I made it sound as though the new correct creed uses those terms.

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"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household." - Mt 10:34-36
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"The future of the world passes through the family." - John Paul II


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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:58 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
Well, that's too bad. I wish there was a footnote that said not to go adding things like that.

It is beyond my depth to really understand what all this portends. I know that it is a better translation and that by itself is a good thing. How is this going to impact the typical modern mass? ISTM that while the changes may be significant in a way that overall there really isn't going to be a tremendous amount of difference.


There is a lot more reference to sins (held apparently more individually rather than communally) as well as more reference to official actions of the Trinity (interceding instead of pleading for instance on the part of Christ). So, the language of the Mass will match up with catechesis. In addition to the reference to sin and mercy, there is also more reference to sacrifice and the unblemished offering of Christ. Adjectives are thrown in before many titles so "Father" becomes "Merciful Father" etc.

In all, at least as far as the Priest parts are concerned, the Mass is much more humble in its approach to the Father and is much more focused on Christ's official action of the unblemished sacrifice to the Father.

As for the People's parts, they are definitely less significant, but you see even some of the above in the Penitential Rite where the confetior is fixed. And instead of an interpreted "Ditto Father!" we will have "and with your spirit" which at the very least is much more enigmatic and thus raises the attention, but also has some arguable deep theology hidden within.

I don't expect thunder to crash when the changes come into affect, but I think slowly over time we may reverse some of what has occured since the poor translation was introduced.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:08 pm 
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ForumJunkie wrote:
[...] in the Penitential Rite where the confetior is fixed.
I looked up the sample text for the new Confiteor, and it looks like it's still quite a bit different than the Latin used in the TLM. Why is that?

New translation:
Quote:
I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

The translation of my Latin in my missal:
Quote:
I confess to almighty God, to the blessed Mary, ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the Saints, and to you, Father, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech the blessed Mary, ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and you, Father, to pray to the Lord our God for me.

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Dominicatella wrote:
ForumJunkie wrote:
[...] in the Penitential Rite where the confetior is fixed.
I looked up the sample text for the new Confiteor, and it looks like it's still quite a bit different than the Latin used in the TLM. Why is that?

Because the Latin text was somewhat shortened in 1970. The new English version seems to be a better translation of the new text.

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Cowboy Max wrote:
Dominicatella wrote:
ForumJunkie wrote:
[...] in the Penitential Rite where the confetior is fixed.
I looked up the sample text for the new Confiteor, and it looks like it's still quite a bit different than the Latin used in the TLM. Why is that?

Because the Latin text was somewhat shortened in 1970. The new English version seems to be a better translation of the new text.

Oooh, thanks. I like the "in thought, word, and deed" part in the older one.

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"Take it as a certain sign that your charity is not genuine if your words, no matter how true, are not charitable." --St Francis de Sales

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:14 am 
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Dominicatella wrote:
Oooh, thanks. I like the "in thought, word, and deed" part in the older one.

In the Finnish translation of the new form, we have it along the lines of "in thoughts, words, deeds and omissions".

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:51 am 
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Cowboy Max wrote:
Dominicatella wrote:
Oooh, thanks. I like the "in thought, word, and deed" part in the older one.

In the Finnish translation of the new form, we have it along the lines of "in thoughts, words, deeds and omissions".


I guess your Finnish bishops realized you had so much more to confess to and just wanted to be definitive.

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 Post subject: Re: New Translation of the Mass - USA Advent 2011
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:27 am 
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Tom Terrific wrote:
Cowboy Max wrote:
Dominicatella wrote:
Oooh, thanks. I like the "in thought, word, and deed" part in the older one.

In the Finnish translation of the new form, we have it along the lines of "in thoughts, words, deeds and omissions".

I guess your Finnish bishops realized you had so much more to confess to and just wanted to be definitive.

First, it is one Finnish bishop, there are no more :)

The Latin in the new form goes: "...peccavi nimis in cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione..." (I have sinned in thought, word, deed and omission). The omission here is an addition to the older formula, while the Saints' names apart from Our Lady have been removed.

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