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 Post subject: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:52 am 
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In an EF Votive Mass, are the normal propers for the feast used, or do any get replaced by those of the day on which it is celebrated? For instance, if I wanted to prepare music for a Votive Mass of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel on August 4th, would I use all the propers of her feast on July 16th, or do any get replaced by those of St. Dominic?

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 Post subject: Re: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:51 am 
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Imo, the propers would be for the Mass of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, not for St. Dominic. This would be in keeping with, say, a Votive Mass of the Holy Ghost after confirmation in which the EF Preface for Pentecost and other propers of that Mass would be used regardless of the calendar day.


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 Post subject: Re: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:08 am 
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Priests are not generally free to ignore Solemnities, Feasts, and Memorials. Since August 8 is an obligatory Memorial, a votive Mass is generally forbidden. From the General Instruction to the Roman Missal:http://www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf

"The Orations
363. In any Mass the orations proper to that Mass are used, unless otherwise noted.
On memorials of Saints, the collect proper to the day is used or, if none is available, one from an
appropriate Common. The prayer over the offerings, however, and the prayer after Communion,
unless they are proper, may be taken either from the Common or from the weekdays of the
current Season.
On the weekdays in Ordinary Time, however, besides the orations from the previous Sunday,
orations from another Sunday in Ordinary Time may be used, or one of the prayers for various
needs provided in the Missal. It is always permissible, however, to use the collect alone from
these Masses.
In this way a richer collection of texts is available, by which the prayer life of the faithful is more
abundantly nourished.
During the more important seasons of the year, however, the proper seasonal orations appointed
for each weekday in the Missal already make provision for this."

and:

"375. Votive Masses of the mysteries of the Lord or in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary or of
the Angels or of any given Saint or of all the Saints may be said for the sake of the faithful’s
devotion on weekdays in Ordinary Time, even if an optional memorial occurs. It is not, however,
allowed to celebrate as Votive Masses, those that refer to mysteries related to events in the life of
the Lord or of the Blessed Virgin Mary, with the exception of the Mass of the Immaculate
Conception, since their celebration is an integral part of the unfolding of the liturgical year."


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 Post subject: Re: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:27 am 
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How the General Calendar meshes with the calendar of the Extraordinary Form is not clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:12 am 
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Do they mesh? I always assumed that when celebrating the 1962 Missal, one was to use the Kalendar in place at the time. Are there any resources as to what they would have done back then?

PS - Thanks to all who have helped so far!

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 Post subject: Re: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:47 am 
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Quote:
I always assumed that when celebrating the 1962 Missal, one was to use the Kalendar in place at the time.

This was the rule under JPII's Ecclesia Dei Afflicta. Benedict XVI's Summorum Pontificum seems to want to keep the provisions that JPII established, but questions have arisen as to whether the new calendar can be used with the traditional form.


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 Post subject: Re: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:07 pm 
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And I completely missed the fact that the questions was about the extraordinary form. Mea Culpa.


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 Post subject: Re: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:02 pm 
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catholiccomposer wrote:
In an EF Votive Mass, are the normal propers for the feast used, or do any get replaced by those of the day on which it is celebrated? For instance, if I wanted to prepare music for a Votive Mass of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel on August 4th, would I use all the propers of her feast on July 16th, or do any get replaced by those of St. Dominic?

If following the EF calendar you CANNOT celebrate the Votive Mass of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on August 4th. Forbidden, because it would constitute a 4th class votive, but the feast is of the 3rd class

What can be done is to celebrate the Feast of Dominic and then add votive collects for Our Lady of Mount Carmel, which would be taken from the Mass on July 16th if no collects are set aside specifically for a Votive Mass

This is assuming that you cannot just follow the new calendar for a particular feast (that is a thorny question- I would say no, but I think some do in good faith. With HoD' s the common practice is to keep them on the same day as is proper, but celebrate an External Solemnity on the Sunday they are transferred to in the OF...as has been done with Corpus Christi anyways since the 19th century)

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 Post subject: Re: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:11 pm 
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For your future info

Quote:
309. The following may be celebrated as votive Mass of the Blessed Virgin Mary:
a) in the universal Church, the Masses assigned in the missal according to the various seasons for the Saturday celebration of the Blessed Virgin, and also all Masses of feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary which are inscribed in the universal calendar;
b) in individual churches, besides the Masses mentioned above, all Masses of feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary which are inscribed in the particular calendars, and other votive Masses specially granted.
If any of the parts to be varied according to the different seasons of the year are lacking in these Masses, they are taken from the common of feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Except for the Mass of the Immaculate Conception, however, Masses which refer to the mysteries of the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary cannot be celebrated as votive.


315. For a votive Mass of the Blessed Virgin Mary, of angels and of saints, the Mass of the respective feast is taken if one is given in the missal, whether in the proper of the saints or among the Masses “for certain places,” unless another Mass is expressly indicated in the missal as the votive Mass.
But if the feast is not in the missal, a Mass is taken from the common. When there are several formulas in the same common, the choice is up to the celebrating priest. And in the different commons the epistles and gospels given in the Masses themselves or at the end of the whole common may be taken in any Mass of that common.
The rubrics are to be observed, however, with regard to the changing of some parts or words, according to the seasons of the year and according for the purely votive character of this Mass.

And most apropos

Quote:
Table of Liturgical Days
Arranged in the order of Precedence

Liturgical Days of the First class
1. Christmas day, Easter Sunday and Pentecost Sunday (1st class with octave).
2. The sacred triduum.
3. The feasts of the Epiphany and the Ascension of our Lord, of the Most Holy Trinity, of Corpus Christi, of the Heart of Jesus and of Christ the King.
4. The feasts of the Immaculate Conception and of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. 5. The vigil and the octave day of Christmas.
6. The Sundays of Advent, Lent and Passiontide, and Low Sunday.
7. Ferias of the 1st class not mentioned above, namely Ash Wednesday and Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of Holy Week.
8. The commemoration of All the Faithful Departed which, however, yields to a Sunday occurring on its date.
9. The vigil of Pentecost.
10. The days within the octaves of Easter and Pentecost.
11. First class feasts of the universal Church not mentioned above.
12. Proper 1st class feasts, namely:
1) the feast of a duly constituted principal patron: a) of a nation b) of a region or province, whether ecclesisastical or civil; c) of a diocese.
2) the anniversary of the dedication of the cathedral church.
3) the feast of a duly constituted principal patron of a place or town or city.
4) the feast and the anniversary of the dedication of the local church, or public or semi-public oratory which takes the place of a church.
5) the titular feast of the local church.
6) the titular feast of an order or congregation.
7) the feast of a canonized founder of an order or congregation.
8) the feast of a duly constituted principal patron of an order or congregation, and of a religious province.
13. Indult feasts of the 1st class, first the movable, then the fixed.
Liturgical Days of the 2nd Class
14. Second class feasts of our Lord, first the movable, then the fixed.
15. Sundays of the 2nd class.
16. Second class feasts of the universal Church, which are not of the Lord.
17. The days within the octave of Christmas.
18. Ferias of the 2nd class, namely those of Advent from December 17 to 23 inclusive and the ember days of Advent, Lent and September.
19. Proper feasts of the 2nd class, namely:
1) the feast of a duly constituted secondary patron: a) of a nation; b) of a region or province, whether ecclesiastical or civil; c) of a diocese; d) of a place or town or city.
2) feasts of saints or blessed as specified in no. 43d.
3) feasts of saints proper to any church (no. 45c).
4) the feast of a beatified founder of an order or congregation (no. 46b).
5) the feast of a duly constituted secondary patron of an order or congrergation, and of a religious province (no 46d).
6)feasts of saints or blessed as specified in no. 46e.
20. Indult feasts of the 2nd class, first the movable, then the fixed.
21. Vigils of the second class.
Liturgical Days of the 3rd Class
22. The ferias of Lent and passiontide, from Thurday after Ash Wednesday to Saturday before the 2nd Sunday of the Passion inclusive, except on ember days.
23. Feast of the 3rd class inscribed in particular calendars, and first the proper feasts, namely:
1) feasts of saints or blessed as specified in no. 43d.
2) feasts of blessed proper to any church (no. 45d).
3) feasts of saints or blessed as specified in no. 46e; then indult feasts, first the movable, then the fixed.
24. Feasts of the 3rd class inscribed in the calendar of the universal Church, first the movable, then the fixed.
25. The ferias of Advent to December 16 inclusive, except the ember days.
26. Vigils of the 3rd class.
27. Saturday office of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
28. Ferias of the 4th class.


And then for the various Votives

Quote:
328. By a votive Mass of the 1st class is meant a votive Mass which may be celebrated on all liturgical days except those listed under nos. 1-8 in the tabele of precedence; the prescription at no. 332 is observed, however.

329. Votive Masses of the 1st Class, provided for by the general rubrics, are:
a) Masses of the dedication in the actual consecration of a church (nos. 331-334); b) Sung Masses of the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist, in the more solemn celebrations of a Eucharistic congress (no. 335);
c) Sung Masses of mysteries of the Lord, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, of a saint or blessed, on the occasion of an extraordinary celebration (no. 340a).

330. The privileges of votive Masses of the 1st class are:
a) they are said with Gloria and creed;
b) they exclude all nonprivileged commemorations, and a collect ordered by the local ordinary;
c) the collect of the impeded votive Mass is added under a single conclusion to the collect of the Mass of the day, provided a day listed under nos. 1, 2, 3 and 8 in the table of precedence does not occur;
d) if they are sung, the solemn tone is used.



341. By a votive Mass of the 2nd class is meant a votive Mass which may be celebrated on all liturgical days of the 2nd , 3rd and 4th class. The Mass for bride and bridegroom and the Mass of thanksgiving on the 25th or 50th wedding anniversary are prohibited, however, on all Sundays.

342. Votive Masses of the 2nd class, provided for by the general rubrics, are:
a) the Mass at the solemn blessing of a church or oratory, and at the consecration of an altar (no. 345);
b) the Mass of the rogations on the greater and lesser litanies (nos 346-347); c) votive Masses on the occasion of the Forty Hours devotion or some other exposition of the Blessed Sacrament (nos. 348-355);
d) Masses of the external solemnity of feasts (nos. 356-361);
e) The Mass on the day of the coronation of the pope and on the anniversaries of the pope and of the diocesan bishop (nos. 362-365);
f) A Mass for a matter of public importance (pro re gravi et publica simul causa) (nos. 366-368);
g) The Mass “for the propagation of the Faith” (no. 369);
h) Masses on certain special occasions (nos. 370-372);
i) Votive Masses at shrines (nos. 373-377);
j) The votive Mass “for Bride and Bridegroom” and the Mass of thanksgiving on the 25th and 50th wedding anniversary (nos. 378-382).

343. The privileges of votive Masses of the 2nd class are:
a) they are said Gloria, unless violet vestments are used; but without creed, unless it is said by reason of an occurring Sunday or octave;
b) they admit of only one commemoration, and they exclude a collect ordered by the local ordinary;
c) the collect of the impeded votive Mass is added under a single conclusion to the collect of the Mass of the day, provided a day listed under nos. 1, 2, 3 and 8 in the table of precedence does not occur; the prescription at no. 380 is observed, however;
d) if they are sung , the solemn tone is used.

344. Votive Masses of the 2nd class are governed by the general norms mentioned in no. 343; but the things proper to each Mass are indicated below.



384. By a votive Mass of the 3rd class is meant a votive Mass which may be celebrated on liturgical days of the 3rd and 4th class.

385. Votive Masses of the 3rd class, provided for by the general rubrics, are:
a) one Mass of our Lord Jesus Christ, eternal High Priest, on the first Thursday or the first Saturday of each month, in churches and oratories in which special devotions are held on that day for the sanctification of the clergy;
b) two Masses of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, on the first Friday of each month, in churches and oratories in which special devotions are held on that day in honor of the Sacred Heart;
c) one Mass of the Immaculate Heart of the Blessed Virgin Mary, on the first Saturday of each month, in churches and oratories in which special devotions are held on that day in honor of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
To these should be added the Mass of the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist which is permitted to the individual priests on the days of a Eucharistic congress (no. 337).

386. The plan for votive Masses of the 3rd class is this:
a) they are said with Gloria, but always without creed;
b) they admit of two commemorations, or one commemoration and a collect ordered by the local ordinary;
c) if they are sung, the solemn tone is used;
d) whenever they are prohibited, they are not commemorated in the Mass of the day.





387. A votive Mass of the 4th class is a votive Mass which may be celebrated only on liturgical days of the 4th class.

388. For a votive Mass of the 4th class any Mass permitted by the rubrics as a votive Mass may be taken. A just cause is required, however, namely the need, utility or devotion of celebrating priest or of the faithful.

389. In the arrangement of a votive Mass of the 4th class the following points are to be observed:
a) the Gloria is not said, except in the Mass of the angels on any day, and in Masses of the Blessed Virgin Mary on Saturday;
b) besides the collect of the Mass, two other collects may be said, among which are to be numbered the commemoration of the office of the day or those occurring in the office of the day, and any collect ordered by the local ordinary, and any votive collect;
c) the creed is always omitted;
d) if the Mass is sung, the ferial tone is used.

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 Post subject: Re: Votive Mass
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:09 pm 
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It just occurred to me, wasn't yesterday John Vianney in the OF (he is on either the 9th, Dubois and Kansas City, or the 13th, say in Los Angeles in the EF)?

So in any case, no you could not have done a votive for Our Lady of Mount Carmel even including the possibility of just using the OF calendar.

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