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 Post subject: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:38 pm 
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Someone please settle an argument between me and my wife.
Since Jesus broke the bread and passed it around to the Apostles why and when did the Church start giving communion only on the tongue? She also wants to know why I consider it a desecration of the Holy Eucharist.

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:10 pm 
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Those who object to giving Communion on the hand object specifically to Communion on the hand of the laity. But the Apostles weren't laymen. 2cents

Also, Communion on the hand is not against Divine law and intrinsically evil. It is against the Western tradition, has the risk of fragments being left on the hand, and can be seen as irreverent.

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:32 am 
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Thank you. I need to know the history of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:44 pm 
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DesertSailor wrote:
She also wants to know why I consider it a desecration of the Holy Eucharist.
As do I. It seems to me that there is a huge jump from irreverence to desecration. To desecrate something seems to me to be intrinsically evil.

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:50 pm 
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The answer to "when" seems to be "no later than the 7th Century."

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:00 am 
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DesertSailor wrote:
Someone please settle an argument between me and my wife.
Since Jesus broke the bread and passed it around to the Apostles why and when did the Church start giving communion only on the tongue? She also wants to know why I consider it a desecration of the Holy Eucharist.


To add to some of the other answers...

As faith becomes harder and harder, practice picks up the slack to strengthen it. Certainly, the eye-witnesses of the resurrection, and the hearers of the witnesses had very strong faith. Their practice of the Eucharist may not have been as formal or rigid or have the same "rules" because they were living in Easter joy unlike any generation since. Their faith was strong because they "saw and believed." We are not in the position. We cannot see. We have to believe without seeing. This is more difficult. So, over time, the PRACTICE of the Eucharist has changed to enhance our reverence for it to increase and support faith.

It is already very difficult for a modern, poorly catechized westerner, swimming in bad philosophy, to know what the Eucharist is. It helps to have rules where they eat it like children or baby birds, where they get down on their knees and let someone in authority in persona Christi feed them. They have already heard that it is actually Christ. But, now their bodies are brought in where do an ACT of admitting it is the Christ. This supports weak faith and strengthens it, since we are 2000 years separated from the things our ancestors got to witness with their own eyes.

Studies have shown that if we relax these developed practices, and return to a more normal reception of Eucharist as common food, then it reinforces the modern temptation to lose faith altogether. So, I would say that "when" it happened was gradually over time as generations were more and more removed from the experiential aspect of the actual Easter, and moved into what Jesus described to St. Thomas in the upper room about the challenges to come for those who will not have that privilege.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 4:17 am 
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If Jesus Christ is in every particle of the host, body, blood, soul and divinity, then it would logically be that communion on the hand is a truly despicable practice, sine patents are not used, and precious particles easily break off.

In other words Jesus is not safe. No parishioner has the right to touch the sacred species, which is why there should not be Extraordinary Eucharistic ministers.

The apostles were priests and bishops, which was different. And even then they were probably given communion on the tongue.

My brother and I scan the aisles in the church, and have personally found bits of hosts on the floor, and have consumed them, so what I am saying is not rubbish.


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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:20 am 
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CoconutBlanket wrote:
No parishioner has the right to touch the sacred species, which is why there should not be Extraordinary Eucharistic ministers.
But what do you base this on? I agree that it's not the best practice but there is a long way from 'this isn't the best practice' to 'no parishioner has the right to touch the sacred species.' That implies that the Church is doing something illicit.

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 7:48 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
CoconutBlanket wrote:
No parishioner has the right to touch the sacred species, which is why there should not be Extraordinary Eucharistic ministers.
But what do you base this on? I agree that it's not the best practice but there is a long way from 'this isn't the best practice' to 'no parishioner has the right to touch the sacred species.' That implies that the Church is doing something illicit.


I would first like to say that you seeing that it is not a good practice is the first step towards potentially ending what can only logically be a bad one.

So that you see and notice it is good, but it must go further towards the abolishment of ending something that is a bad one.

Which is parishioners have no right at all to touch God himself.

Now I am going to assume that you think communion on the hand is okay since you think the church is incapable of instituting a bad practice. You may or may not believe this, but if you agree with me, other people who support communion on the hand can learn that it is not the best thing for themselves, nor is it for the Savior of mankind, Jesus Christ. This will also be discussed.

Now, how many parishioners do you know that rinse their fingers in the cup, and then drink it to consume the precious particles so that none are lost? The priests do this, or rather they used to. Extraordinary ministers never do this,

Do they know when to refuse someone? Such as a person who comes to church drunk, or a person acting squirrelly?

Do parishioners have good habits such as washing their hands?

Are they worthy? Orthodox even?

Do they think of it any differently then going to get a cup of coffee? Most people are chatty Cathy's when they are carrying the chalice and patent as they carry it to the back or side.

Is it necessary to have them in a parish where anywhere from 15-50 people attend just so people can get out quicker to watch the football game on TV?

And do you ever notice most ministers are little old ladies, who have trouble holding, or taking care of the host properly? I went up to one extraordinary Eucharistic minister to receive him on the tongue, and she said she couldn't do it. One old lady did not even look at my brother. She was looking away as she shoved Jesus in his mouth with careless fast disinterest. My brother sternly corrected her, and she deserved it.

Now, I would like to ask you a few questions.

1. Is Jesus Christ in every particle of the host? Yes or no.

2. And if he is indeed truly in every particle of the host, is it more likely possible for him to fall on the ground with this practice? And judging from the actual precious particles found on the ground that my brother and I consumed, the question truly answers itself.

3. Is Jesus falling on the ground a good or a bad thing?

4. Would the extraordinary Eucharistic minister know or even care about this?

One things for sure. Most priests don't as they shovel Jesus around quickly in people's hands and mouths so that many particles fall. And there is no patents for them to catch them. I have even seen an altar girl flip a patent over and lazily walk up to the altar bored and careless. I told the priest immediately.

The host has even fallen on the ground when he was given to me by extraordinary Eucharistic ministers, and careless priests freaked out by tongues.

Imagine that! A practice over 1000 years old put in and instituted by the Church, by known Saints to protect Jesus is basically abolished and seen as archaic and old fashioned with the introduction of communion on the hand and extraordinary ministers.

So as you can see, logically Jesus is in every particle, and if he falls on the floor, logically that is bad.

It should also be noted that The Eucharist should be put to the roof of the mouth and swallowed so he is not stuck in your teeth. He should never be chewed. Just a helpful side note.

So, to answer your main question people should not under any circumstances be allowed to touch God. It is too familiar, routine, and shoveling him out on a cookie is humiliating for him. With extraordinary ministers there are opportunities for more abuses. In other words, they are not priests, have no idea how to protect Jesus, nor do they care to. I know one thing. There are many priests who do not treat God with care unfortunately.

If I was a priest and someone came up to me wanting to be a minister, I would tell them to get lost. Me and me alone will handle him since they are too inept, or incapable of protecting him. And if they want communion on the hand (I would not join a rite that supported communion on the hand in the first place), I would tell them simply to drop dead.

Because I can assure you if Catherine of Siena, Therese of Liseux, Teresa of Avila, and Francis and Clare of Assisi were alive today and saw what people were doing to the Eucharist, they would be appalled by the careless treatment at how the loving Savior was and is treated by priests and extraordinary ministers alike with communion on the hand. And especially at the frantic super speed the way the host is shoveled out not with care, but indifference.

To put it simply, you need to come up with a better solution then the church allows it.

And insuring the protection of God in The Host comes first.

This is the Golden Rule, and the rule I live by.


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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 9:15 am 
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CoconutBlanket wrote:

In other words Jesus is not safe. No parishioner has the right to touch the sacred species, which is why there should not be Extraordinary Eucharistic ministers Ministers of Holy Communion



ftfy :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:36 pm 
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CoconutBlanket wrote:
I would first like to say that you seeing that it is not a good practice is the first step towards potentially ending what can only logically be a bad one.
That does not follow at all and it is based on modern assumptions of good and bad. There are gradations of good. Just because one practice is better than another that does not mean that one of them is bad or wrong.

CoconutBlanket wrote:
Which is parishioners have no right at all to touch God himself.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean but I assume you mean that a parishioner (i.e. not a priest) have no right to touch the sacred species. But that's an assertion, not an argument. What is this based on? Where is it revealed that the faithful are not allowed to touch the sacred species? Can you point to a document that explicitly says this? And if it is indeed illegal, what canon does it violate? Can you cite the paragraph? Remember that just because one practice is better than another that does not mean that one of them is bad or wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 10:23 pm 
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No one has the right to touch God. Not even a priest, bishop, or Pope. Touching the Eucharist is a privilege, a gift from God.

John Paul II writes:
Quote:
To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained, one which indicates an active participation in the ministry of the Eucharist. It is obvious that the Church can grant this faculty to those who are neither priests nor deacons, as is the case with acolytes in the exercise of their ministry, especially if they are destined for future ordination, or with other lay people who are chosen for this to meet a just need, but always after an adequate preparation.

-Dominicae Cenae, 11


There is no right to the Holy Sacrifice, touching the Eucharist, or salvation itself. It is all gratuitous.

Now, I don't agree with John Paul II insofar as granting this privilege to acolytes and lay people as it is highly imprudent for all the reasons argued here. Also, I don't think this is what CoconutBlanket meant when he said lay people don't have the "right." I am just making this point because the word "right" is highly misused nowadays.

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:45 am 
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I think we have to be careful in referring to it as a "privilege", though, as well. If a priest has the duty to give Holy Communion to those who are disposed (and he does), then he has the right to do it as well. So in that sense he has the "right" to touch the Sacred Species.

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:48 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I think we have to be careful in referring to it as a "privilege", though, as well. If a priest has the duty to give Holy Communion to those who are disposed (and he does), then he has the right to do it as well. So in that sense he has the "right" to touch the Sacred Species.



I prefer the word "gratuitous" anyway. If a priest has the duty to give Holy Communion to those who are disposed, wouldn't that be more of an obligation than a right? Or perhaps there is different meanings to the word "right." Christ gives us the Eucharist and permits Himself to be touched by the priest in order to offer sacrifice and give the Sacrament - this would be gratuitous. The priest's ability to do this is a gift, but someone trying to stop him would be in violation of his "right" as he was ordained to do this (?).

Also, I will amend what I said above: only with some kind of absolutely necessary situation should the non-ordained be able to touch the Sacred Species. E.g. for someone who is on the verge of death and no priest/deacon available. But someone could argue that more precautions should be implemented in these rare situations; gloves and something to catch particles as well... perhaps?

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 7:43 am 
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Alexandros wrote:
If a priest has the duty to give Holy Communion to those who are disposed, wouldn't that be more of an obligation than a right? Or perhaps there is different meanings to the word "right."

Yes, rights language is very confusing at the moment. But traditionally, rights come from duties/obligations - if you have a duty to do something, then you have the right to do it as well. But this isn't a "right" in the sense of a liberty or civil right or whatever. So a priest has the right to touch the Sacred Species in the course of worship, or to bring Holy Communion to the faithful -- precisely because he has the duty to do these things.

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 Post subject: Re: Communion in the hand
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 1:46 pm 
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My point with 'right' is the more modern one; that the opposite is 'not allowed.' I haven't seen any canons that say that only priests are given the grace to be able to touch the species and that the laity does not have this grace and are thus not allowed to do so. If that is true, the Church is in violation of its own laws. I find that unlikely.

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