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 Post subject: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:19 am 
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Please help me understand this:
Some say that there is no need for Children’s Mass as children like the EF. Only in the OF is Mass for children needed. I guess there is some truth to this but I am no expert.
In the older days the songs children sang at school here in Sweden were really “classical” and very beautiful. I guess these songs ain’t easy for them. People could have wrote easy songs but rather gave them harder melodies to sing. Something to strive for.
But here I am refering to a 7 year old kid.
Nowadays the tunes for children are often more “childish” and not really performed with a classical technique (but of course, we still have the older tunes).
I guess pedagogy has change.
What do the experts say?

I also add that participating at Mass can be hard for an untrained adult. I feel that weekly Masses are easier than long Sunday Masses with music. It takes time too learn all of this. I have no problem studying for 1h but the Mass has too much going on at once. Mass is a performance.
Not that the bloody Crucifixion that Mary attended was free from too much going on? But I guess she had a lot of experience with such rituals.
Any tips?


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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:29 am 
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What do you mean when you say that the Mass is a performance?

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:09 am 
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I say that you're missing the point of Mass. It's understandable because so much that goes on is geared--intentionally or otherwise--to point you in the wrong direction. Mass is not about enjoyment. Mass is not about the congregation singing at all, much less singing well. It's about the Sacrifice.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:27 am 
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I wonder if I understand the question. You mention Sweden. Is Swedish your original language?

I wonder because I can see the Mass as a performance in some respects, but I think that ritual or rite ... or liturgy might be a better description.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:03 am 
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Highlander wrote:
I wonder if I understand the question. You mention Sweden. Is Swedish your original language?

I wonder because I can see the Mass as a performance in some respects, but I think that ritual or rite ... or liturgy might be a better description.

At Mass you hear music. Some people perform music.
You also see a Priest reciting (or singing) the Eucharistic prayer and people following along and singing (or reciting) the Mystery of Faith. I mean, it just feels like a performance...and yes, I do say that the crucifixion that happaned some 2000 years ago was also a bit of a performance.
I recently went to a concert in a church and just attending that concert made me use my mind in trying to understand all that was going on. At Mass I am supposed to be more than a person in the audience. So much is going on.
Yes, I speak Swedish. Ingenting is a swedish word.

Then of course, the music is not too important. Maybe a shorter Mass like they have on Monday-Saturday is easier.
Or maybe a Mass without singing at all is easier. They often sing in low keys anyway. It is hard to attend Mass. Don't romantisize it!


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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:55 am 
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I can see where some aspects of the Mass might be distracting, particularly if one has not grown up with it. And I can see where one's personality responds more positively to one form of the Mass over another form. I can also see that the Mass might be perceived as a performance; after all, much of all human activity is, in part, a performance.

I'd suggest you investigate the different form of the Mass (other's can explain them better than I can), and investigate how a particular priest presents the Mass in the Ordinary Form, and attend that Mass which best allows you to move beyond performance into participation -- to be more than just a member of an audience.

It should be somewhat difficult to attend Mass, because it requires attention and effort on the part of the faithful attending and participating. One should not be passive, but active. As far as romanticization goes, I, personally, would agree. Others might not. And, you know, some things become romantic in memory, when they were not at all in actual practice. HST, I understand how one who participates fully in the Mass would, with reason, romanticize it.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:00 am 
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The Divine Liturgy is the "work of the people." That is what the word "litorgia" means....the work of the people.

In Eastern Christianity, there has never been such a thing as a "Children's Mass (or Liturgy). Children attend and do what children do. That is, they are noisy, the get out of the pews and run around, sometimes they go right up to the priest and the parents dash after them and gett them. This is all fine. Being at the Liturgy and being part of it is how they will learn the Propers and the hymns. While I imagine a few folks get their knickers in a knot about this, the majority of us are happy to have the children with us. Having a large number of children at Liturgy is a sign of a healthy parish.


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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:30 am 
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There shouldn't be such a thing in Western Christianity either. It's an aberration that should be stopped.

IMHO, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
... such a thing ...


What "such a thing"?

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:35 pm 
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Chasing the kids out of Mass, whatever it's called.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:18 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
The Divine Liturgy is the "work of the people." That is what the word "litorgia" means....the work of the people.
Yes, but not only that. It equally means 'the work for the people,' and that is the way the word is used in the New Testament (for example Hebrews 8:2) and the way it was used in ancient Greece, where a rich individual could perform a liturgy for the people by paying for theatres, roads, armies, etc. And that way, the work of the people was facilitated. So liturgy is the work of the people but only because it is first the work for the people.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Chasing the kids out of Mass, whatever it's called.

A thing that happens so rarely, it doesn't even have a name :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:33 pm 
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"Children's Liturgy of the Word" is one name.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:09 am 
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I guess I am one of those guys who struggle woth the singing. I mean, I do take serious singing lessons now but I do not know how to sing all those hymns and especially not in the low keys that takes the fun out of singing.
I tried recently to attend a High Mass without caring too much about the music but...I just felt like ot is hard not to care about what happens around you.
I probably need to learn how to sing lower and learn a lot of tunes before I can attend a High Mass again.
How do you deal with this?

And why didn't we need Masses for children back when we had only the extraordinary form? Is the need for a children's Mass a ordinary form kinda thing?


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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:29 am 
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I will, and have, said that music in the various Catholic parishes in which I have attended Mass ranges from horrible to pretty bad. Even ignoring the couple of guitar and tambourine whatever-they-were incidents. I miss the music in the Episcopal and Protestant churches I have attended. Music and singing from the choir, or what passes for a choir, and singing from the pews does not seem to be important in Catholic culture. Or so I observe.

HST, I have listened to the singing of a beautiful visiting choir in St Peter's in Rome. But that is, by far, the exception.

You can, you know, join the choir. And, perhaps, uplift it.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:55 am 
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ingenting wrote:
And why didn't we need Masses for children back when we had only the extraordinary form? Is the need for a children's Mass a ordinary form kinda thing?

There isn't a need for children's Masses.

But several generations ago, when parishes had several Masses on Sundays, children would often attend an earlier Mass and adults a later one, no doubt in part because of the fasting regulations (strict fast from midnight) before receiving Holy Communion.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:56 am 
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ingenting wrote:
I guess I am one of those guys who struggle woth the singing. I mean, I do take serious singing lessons now but I do not know how to sing all those hymns and especially not in the low keys that takes the fun out of singing.
I tried recently to attend a High Mass without caring too much about the music but...I just felt like ot is hard not to care about what happens around you.
I probably need to learn how to sing lower and learn a lot of tunes before I can attend a High Mass again.
How do you deal with this?

If I don't know a hymn, or if I object to it on aesthetic or theological grounds, I don't sing it. Please don't feel like you have to sing all the hymns and anthems to participate in Holy Mass, participation is primarily internal.

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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:14 am 
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Highlander wrote:
I will, and have, said that music in the various Catholic parishes in which I have attended Mass ranges from horrible to pretty bad. Even ignoring the couple of guitar and tambourine whatever-they-were incidents. I miss the music in the Episcopal and Protestant churches I have attended. Music and singing from the choir, or what passes for a choir, and singing from the pews does not seem to be important in Catholic culture. Or so I observe.

HST, I have listened to the singing of a beautiful visiting choir in St Peter's in Rome. But that is, by far, the exception.

You can, you know, join the choir. And, perhaps, uplift it.

Your observation is very non-Swedish.
Here the Catholics sing hymns (ot at least try to).
The choir tradition and singing from.the pews are very important in the Catholic Church so what are you talking about?


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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:21 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
ingenting wrote:
I guess I am one of those guys who struggle woth the singing. I mean, I do take serious singing lessons now but I do not know how to sing all those hymns and especially not in the low keys that takes the fun out of singing.
I tried recently to attend a High Mass without caring too much about the music but...I just felt like ot is hard not to care about what happens around you.
I probably need to learn how to sing lower and learn a lot of tunes before I can attend a High Mass again.
How do you deal with this?

If I don't know a hymn, or if I object to it on aesthetic or theological grounds, I don't sing it. Please don't feel like you have to sing all the hymns and anthems to participate in Holy Mass, participation is primarily internal.

So a hymn that the Bishop accepted to be Catholic might not be Catholic?
The problem for me is this: keys are often too low. It takes the fun out of singing. You see it is hard singing with people in the pews. Many complain about the notes above C4. I can sing a hymn up to G4. I comolain about C3 as beibg low (it feels low).
I feel that going to Mass is too much about complaining how low the hymns are.
It is hard to be a person who don't have a low voice.
I guess I have to join the choir. Then I'll show them!!


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 Post subject: Re: I need your your expert view on this
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:53 am 
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The bishops generally don't control the music in parishes.

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