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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:28 am 
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Carole wrote:
Athanasius wrote:
Feeeeliiinngs...O, O, O Feelings. Go start your own thread. Stop whining while you are at it.

CDL


Dan,

I am not whining. I see no point in starting "my own thread." The fact that you don't like or agree with what I am saying does not preclude me from participation in "your" thread. I have given my opinion, you don't like it so now you want me to leave your thread ... And you accuse me of whining? Grow up, Dan.


You will not talk about the issues that have transpired here except to deny that they exist. I suppose that you are entitled to your opinion. Many of my students deny the existence of God. So I ask them if they think that anything at all exists? Despite whatever answer they give they still deny the existence of God.

If you wish to insist that reality exists only when you experience it why don't you start a thread in the Lyceum?

If you want to suggest that sin does not exist unless an individual thinks it exists why don't you start a new thread?

If you think that the researchers and philosophers and theologians and church leaders who have all pointed to the reality that music (not just the lyrics) can in fact objectively have a negative or a positive effect upon the hearer then make your case. Don't just assert your "feelings" about it.

If you think that it is good to listen to lusty and violent music is wrong in the mass but fine outside of it, make your case. Don't just assert you "feelings" about it.

On the other hand you can assert anything you wish. It's a free country. But your assertions don't make a whole lot of sense without some degree of support for them.

CDL

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:06 am 
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:stir


:popcorn

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:12 am 
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faithfulservant wrote:
:stir


:popcorn


Now cut that out! :? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:16 am 
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but but but... it's what i do best... that and posting applicable R&R songs found on youtube :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:28 am 
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It's a difficult place I find myself in. The world is often too much with us...with me anyway. I know that the beat is not designed to produce "fruit worthy of repentance". But I do listen to some of it. It is a question of how quickly I am willing to move onto holiness. That principle is true for everyone but I must struggle with my own temptations. Just refusing to listen isn't quite enough. I don't listen to the stuff much. Perhaps what little I do listen to is for nostalgic reasons. Then again to wish to hold onto this life is not so good either.

Let's pray for each other so that we will move onto holiness.

CDL

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:02 am 
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Candlemass wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Just saw an AC/DC concert and it was by far the BEST concert EVER. Even though they're not exactly a 'godly' group, I do enjoy their music immensely. Rock on!


My son really like them, I don't much care for them, I'm more into Judas Priest, Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden, AC/DC is a bit to reduntant for my taste.


You mean you don't like a group who only knows three chords and has a lead yeller? :) They're not the most talented band around but I think they're entertaining. I've also heard that they put on a really good show.

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:34 am 
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Carole wrote:
Candlemass wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Just saw an AC/DC concert and it was by far the BEST concert EVER. Even though they're not exactly a 'godly' group, I do enjoy their music immensely. Rock on!


My son really like them, I don't much care for them, I'm more into Judas Priest, Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden, AC/DC is a bit to reduntant for my taste.


You mean you don't like a group who only knows three chords and has a lead yeller? :) They're not the most talented band around but I think they're entertaining. I've also heard that they put on a really good show.


Hmmm, guess you haven't seen Angus Young in action. They did, after all, sell over 200 million albums. You heard right, though, their concert was simply amazing. 40,000+ people in Giants stadium, not one of them sat down for the entire show.

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:20 pm 
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To continue my comment to Faithfulservant,

The issue isn't just rock or no rock or eating meat or not eating meat or you name it. The issue is going onto holiness. I never have worried to much about what others did or did not do or even what they believed. Maybe that's even more true now than earlier in my life. I never have been too concerned about whether people thought I was too strict or not strict enough. I've been accused of both. Some have thought me a liberal others a conservative. Some have called me a fundamentalist and others a modernist. Now I guess some think I'm overly scrupulous. I don't worry about it.

What I'm trying to become is "holy". It's both a satisfying walk and a bit of a frustration. The satisfaction comes when I'm confident I'm walking the walk. The frustration comes when I know that there is a long way to go.

There are many things that offer a mixture of things that produce holiness and repentance. There are some things that don't produce either which are even so hold a little draw for me. Rock is one of the latter. I know that there is not much objectively good in Rock but I still like to listen to some of it. Maybe someday the Lord will reveal something good in some tiny bit of it...something that produces fruit meet for repentance. Which is to say without such evidence comments in favor of it

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:57 pm 
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Athanasius wrote:
If you think that it is good to listen to lusty and violent music is wrong in the mass but fine outside of it, make your case. Don't just assert you "feelings" about it.


Upon what basis do you claim that rock music is arbitrarily and empirically "lusty and violent"? You make a claim, you back it up with support of who established that claim. Prove it.

There are countless studies that link rock music not to sin, but quite to the contrary, to classical music. "Prove it," you say. Gladly. Here's a recent surveyed dated 7/29/2009, and five songs that the study lists as examples:

"The Farm - All Together Now"
Johann Pachelbel's Canon in D. (Coolio also used the Baroque masterpiece, originally penned around 1680, to underlay his 1997 single C U When U Get There.)

"Take That – Could It Be Magic?"
Chopin's Preclude in C Minor

"Eric Carmen - All By Myself"
Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No 2 in C minor, Op 18.

"Nas – I Can"
Ludwig van Beethoven's Für Elise

"The Streets – Same Old Thing"
Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/ju ... ical-music

Rock music does not originate from sin, nor does it by definition propagate sin. Rock music originates from the same basis as any other type of music - namely, the musical notes do, re, mi, fa, so, la and ti.

If that doesn't prove anything to you, than perhaps a study published in the US Journal of Sport & Exercise Psychology will at least give food for thought: links rock music to better cardio-vascular health, as in running faster, etc.
Source:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 53391.html


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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:01 pm 
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Read the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:05 pm 
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Athanasius wrote:
Read the thread.


I did. It was about your "feelings." If you "feel" that rock music is sinful and evil and Satanic, that's certainly your prerogative. But when you make a generalized claim about how theologians and scientists and whoever have empirically substantiated your "feelings," the proper thing to do is provide proof of that. Is it about your "feelings" or about empirically proving that rock music is sinful and evil and Satanic? Have your cake? Eat it?


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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:09 pm 
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havana wrote:
Athanasius wrote:
Read the thread.


I did. It was about your "feelings." If you "feel" that rock music is sinful and evil and Satanic, that's certainly your prerogative. But when you make a generalized claim about how theologians and scientists and whoever have empirically substantiated your "feelings," the proper thing to do is provide proof of that. Is it about your "feelings" or about empirically proving that rock music is sinful and evil and Satanic? Have your cake? Eat it?


As usual you are full of ..it.

CDL

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"There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions." — G.K. Chesterton


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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:15 pm 
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Information, we need information....who are you?!

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:04 pm 
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To get back to the basics momentarily, which we all seem to agree on, music has an effect on man. Different music has different effects, but each type has a distinct and universal effect on the hearer.

From those two points the basis of the rest of the discussion rests. I believe most people have already agreed to those points so I won't pursue their case any further. Let me stop and make a few points that should put some minds at ease: by 'music' I do not mean words, though they may be included as sounds, the actual lyrics themselves are not what I am talking about; no music is intrinsically evil; music may be ordered to increase virtue in a given circumstance, vice in another, but not all circumstances are the same, just as killing is not always immoral; and finally, and most importantly, I judge music based upon the individual characteristics it portrays and placed into a neutral setting.

Music has four chief elements: harmony, melody, rhythm, and beat. Although these are often broken up into sub-elements, this is adequate for our example and really the most applicable.

This is the point where I break away from the accepted and scientifically proven(to my knowledge anyway) and enter into more philosophical personal thoughts of my own, though I know some other philosophically minded contemporary persons agree on at least the initial portion of what follows. Each element of music has a corresponding human emotion: harmony and peace; melody and love; rhythm and lust; lastly beat and violence. Each element evokes it's corresponding emotion in the recipient.

This is why music which is principally comprised of harmony would calm you, music principally comprised of beat would evoke feelings of strength and violence. That is why in sexual festivities in native or tribal settings their music is chiefly rhythmic. This is also why the primarily beat music is attributed to war, i.e. drums, and songs like 'we will rock you' and the foot stomping are associated with modern gladiatorial events. It is fairly common sense and readily observable that these things are true.

Now to the final point. Music will naturally cause its subsequent effect upon the listener based upon the nature of its composition, as described above. Therefore, music which is principally comprised of harmony and melody would be deemed to evoke emotional responses in the hearer more properly ordered towards worship of God. Whereas music comprised principally of rhythm and beat would evoke emotional responses in the hearer which are not properly ordered towards the worship of God. It would also be reasonable to deem such music hostile to the worship of God(though on a scale, with some merely not conducive to worship to slightly hampering of worship to violently opposed, depending on the circumstances). Music containing enough of those elements might be said to subvert the action of the Holy Spirit to aid the person in doing God's will in his daily life. The opposite can be said of music principally comprised of harmony and melody(e.g. a sliding scale from neutral to possibly cultivating an increased awareness in the Will of God and action of the Holy Spirit culminating in an increased desire to live a life of virtue). Therefore certain music could be readily termed 'sacred music'. Other music could readily be termed 'the devil's music'. Remember I said this is in a neutral setting. Though in an appropriate setting, even 'the devil's music' may be appropriate such as before a battle in a just war.

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:08 pm 
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I forgot a link I searched up to include as modern scientific support for the observed effect of music on man.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... c-moves-us
Quote:
Key Concepts

* Some scientists conclude that music’s influence over us may be a chance event, arising from its ability to hijack brain systems built for other purposes such as language, emotion and movement.
* Music seems to offer a novel method of communication rooted in emotions rather than in meaning. Research shows that what we feel when we hear a piece of music is remarkably similar to what everybody else in the room is experiencing.
* Songs facilitate emotional bonding and even physical interactions such as marching or dancing together and thus may help cement ties that underlie the formation of human societies. In addition, tunes may work to our benefit on an individual level, manipulating mood and even human physiology more effectively than words can.

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:09 pm 
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Very well stated. Since the goal of the one seeking to be a saint I should think music that can rightly be called "sacred" would be the usual form of music sought. There are exceptions as you point out. Well done.

CDL

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:55 pm 
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Enough of that, time for me to get back to my inflammatory remarks. Let us return to Rock n roll being of the devil. Rock is of the devil to the extent that it relies more heavily on beat and rhythm rather than the other elements of music, though each song would have to be judged individually.

While I would say the majority of it falls into the realm of not ordered to the worship of God, but also not terribly hostile to the worship of God either, and most of it is certainly not going to be violently hostile to the listener's ability to recognize the action of the Holy Spirit in his life and impede his ability to understand and conform to the will of God in daily life, though some will accomplish that end. Some could also most likely be classified on the other side of the spectrum as well. In short, to say ALL rock n roll is of the devil is not accurate. Compared to much of classical music there is a stark contrast as they are generally on opposite sides of the line. A general comparison would cause one to say that rock is of the devil, and it would be a fair statement, IMO.

Further explanation upon that last point, I assume, will be necessary. I hold that music(and art, but that is not germane) is a gift to mankind from God. I don't have any scripture to back that up but since it is a purely abstract construct I count it among His gift of intellect albeit more akin to His gift of sex. The devil has a way of perverting God's gifts in an attempt to cause our damnation.

In recent years we have all seen the work of the devil in perverting God's gift of sex to mankind. It has been ever-present throughout history, but seems to have manifested itself more abundantly in this modern era. It appears that the devil both hates these gifts and wishes to use their influence against us.

Seemingly around the same time as the sexual revolution, and less remarked upon by moralists, was the musical revolution, the other perversion of one of God's gifts. I hold that this, too, was handiwork of the devil. Although of more subtle effect, I believe that this has achieved the exact same results. To a degree commensurate with the level of change in the primary elements of the music we listen to an amount of our ability to both resist the devil's temptation and ascertain God's Will has been compromised. I certainly do not claim to know the extent of influence that this has had, and it is entirely debatable, but personally I don't feel it is terribly remarkable, though altogether real.

Some may dismiss my opinions as mere rubbish, but I will continue to maintain that: music is a gift from God, is meant for our enjoyment, and holds great power for both good or evil, similar to his gift of sex, though to a lesser degree(but possibly not-I have not sufficiently pondered that point yet).

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:06 pm 
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Whatever.

I'm listening to the Ventures as I type. Love surf music.

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:17 pm 
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I'm not listening to much rock music latley, mostly my "Scripture Memory Songs" CD's. I'm getting rid of my Black Sabbath, Doors, Judas Priest...., in fact I'm getting rid of much of my collection. I'm still undecided about my "christian rock and metal", although I'm not listening to much of it lately, I still like it when I work out or other such activities. Lyrics and worldview are important to me, and I believe if we continue to pump the the world's values and ideas in our mind, we will become like them, the same could be said about what we view. Of course everything affects people differently, and anything done outside of faith is sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Rock
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:47 am 
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Thought I'd invetigate this "beat/rhythm" thing a little more;

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/05/ ... -evil.html

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