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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:37 am 
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The Grand Inquisitor scene is alittle confusing.
Ivan mentions the three temptations the devil offered Christ: Stone to bread, falling off the precipice to be saved by the angels of God, and ruling the earth.
He says that if he could have done any of these three he would have won over the hearts of the people and they would have willingly followed him (sure, at the expense of their freedom to choose otherwise, according to Ivan). Ivan breaks them down into 3 different groups: Miracles, Mystery, and Authority. That if Christ would have done these three (all or individually) it would have been best.

Ivan seems to think that Christ didn't do any of these. But He only didn't do them at the devil's requesting of them.
He did perform Miracles (water to wine, multiplication of the fish and loaves, and others).... He did give them Mystery of his divinity.... He did bring Authority (power to bind and loose.... establishing a Church with Peter as the rock on which it is built).

It's hard to be too impressed by what Ivan is saying through the character of the Grand Inquisitor because all of that was done, just not at the prompting of the devil....

And again that theme of Ivan's with the Church becoming the State, which the Grand Inquisitor says means that the Catholic Church ultimately DID take the offer from the devil to have dominion over the World... It just strikes me as paranoid as someone saying something like "TRUMP ruined America! Everything is already different! and Terrible!!". Your own eyes looking at the situation just doesn't even see that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:54 am 
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p.falk wrote:
It's hard to be too impressed by what Ivan is saying through the character of the Grand Inquisitor because all of that was done, just not at the prompting of the devil....


Huh? When did Christ turn stones to bread? When did he jump off a cliff and get rescued by angels? The writer of the song 'We Are the World' seems to labor under the same false impression, as the line 'As God has shown us, by turning stones to bread.' That never happened in any gospel I've ever read.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:19 am 
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Doom,
Ivan's point was that Christ could have performed miracles to win over the conscience of man so at to obviate man's freedom (which Ivan sees as a good thing) and lead to man wanting to follow Christ.

The jumping off of the cliff to be saved by angels was, as Ivan states, how Christ could have won them over with Mysteries.

I stated that Ivan grouped these as Miracles, Mysteries, and Authorities (accepting the devil's offer of dominion over the earth's kingdoms). And I think I put in the extra work so as to NOT have it confused as my saying "oh yeah... don't you remember when Christ turned rocks into bread??".

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:49 am 
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Quote:
The writer of the song 'We Are the World'
Michael Jackson and Lionel Richie.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:50 am 
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a J-Dub and a "who knows?" :|

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:37 am 
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I have a theory about the book but I'll wait till your done to voice it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:56 am 
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p.falk wrote:
Doom,
Ivan's point was that Christ could have performed miracles to win over the conscience of man so at to obviate man's freedom (which Ivan sees as a good thing) and lead to man wanting to follow Christ.

The jumping off of the cliff to be saved by angels was, as Ivan states, how Christ could have won them over with Mysteries.

I stated that Ivan grouped these as Miracles, Mysteries, and Authorities (accepting the devil's offer of dominion over the earth's kingdoms). And I think I put in the extra work so as to NOT have it confused as my saying "oh yeah... don't you remember when Christ turned rocks into bread??".


I think you misunderstand what Ivan is saying. His argument isn't that Christ never performed miracles, he is saying that Christ should have miraculously made everyone believe him. When confronted with the unbelieving Jews, Christ could have just said 'so you don't believe in me? (waves hand and performs miracle) Now you do.' That is what he means by 'performing miracles to impel belief', Christ could have simply forced them to believe him through a miracle.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 10:34 am 
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That makes sense.

Some of what the grand inquisitor is saying almost sounds like a secularists desire for an earthly utopia

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:12 am 
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The thoughts of Fr. Zosima, as he lay dying, that he gives to the other monks are beautiful.

I want to commit the whole thing to memory. It feels like something I've read in Fr. Jacques Philippe.... or Thomas a Kempis.

I wonder if Dostoevsky based that character on someone he knew in his actual life.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:09 pm 
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There's a reoccurring theme of feeling ashamed in this book, and how that feeling manifests itself in these negative coping and interacting with others strategies.
Fyodor and Dmitri Karamazov struggle with it... Grusenka struggles with it... Kolya also struggles with it. It leads to some of them acting like intentional buffoons. It leads to others being suspicious of others. But in all the occurrences it negatively effects their relations with other people... which is understandable enough.

I can conceive of the problem that constantly feeling ashamed of who you are could have theological implications. But it's just not an explicit theme that I've seen too often. Is this something of greater note in the Russian Orthodox Church? A theme that serves as the underpinning to concepts in that church?

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:43 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
There's a reoccurring theme of feeling ashamed in


Let me finish this sentence for you "in every single book written by Dostoyevsky from the moment of his birth until the moment of his death."

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:58 pm 
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Dostoyevsky was able to write as a new-born? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Doom wrote:
p.falk wrote:
There's a reoccurring theme of feeling ashamed in


Let me finish this sentence for you "in every single book written by Dostoyevsky from the moment of his birth until the moment of his death."


Well, this one is my first but I'll trust you it occurs in all.
I don't doubt the importance or the strength shame can play in a person's life... muddling their minds and sidetracking them from what's important in their lives; namely, derailing a growth towards God. Fr Zosima and Alyosha both are quick to hone in on the feeling of shame as being the root to all of these characters goofy mannerisms.

I read a decent amount and this is the first I can think of shame as being so heavily focused on. I can see the value of shining the light on it... I just never in the past thought of how fundamental it may be in besetting someone.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:01 pm 
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Almost done... and it's been a great novel. But Book XII 'Miscarriage of Justice' was way too long. Sentences that go on for lines and paragraphs that cover pages.
So much repetition too. The defense attorney repeating large swaths of what the prosecutor said... and then the prosecutor repeating things the defense repeated from the prosecutor.

This book in the novel could have been cut down to 1/3rd the original.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:22 pm 
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p.falk wrote:
This book in the novel could have been cut down to 1/3rd the original.


Try reading Victor Hugo

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:05 am 
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p.falk wrote:
Almost done... and it's been a great novel. But Book XII 'Miscarriage of Justice' was way too long. Sentences that go on for lines and paragraphs that cover pages.
So much repetition too. The defense attorney repeating large swaths of what the prosecutor said... and then the prosecutor repeating things the defense repeated from the prosecutor.

This book in the novel could have been cut down to 1/3rd the original.


Again, let me know when you're done

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:13 pm 
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HalJordan wrote:
p.falk wrote:
Almost done... and it's been a great novel. But Book XII 'Miscarriage of Justice' was way too long. Sentences that go on for lines and paragraphs that cover pages.
So much repetition too. The defense attorney repeating large swaths of what the prosecutor said... and then the prosecutor repeating things the defense repeated from the prosecutor.

This book in the novel could have been cut down to 1/3rd the original.


Again, let me know when you're done



I just finished it.
Wow... that last chapter was a rough one to read. Very touching. However, the cheering on of Alyosha at the very end came across alittle misplaced. Odd reaction for his finale speech.. But, they were young kids, maybe were just whipped up into the emotion of the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Excellent. Here is my theory by the way.
Spoilers:










Ivan actually killed Fyodor.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:35 pm 
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HalJordan wrote:
Excellent. Here is my theory by the way.
Spoilers:










Ivan actually killed Fyodor.


Hmmmm...
Could you explain why you think that?

Now that you mention it: his sickness is just left hanging there. Kind of like the story that Fr. Zosima gives about the stranger who was being worn down by the guilt of killing his ex-love and pegging it on the servant.
however, Smerdykov outright admits that he himself is the one who did it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Brothers Karamazov - Dostoevesky
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:36 pm 
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HalJordan wrote:
Excellent. Here is my theory by the way.
Spoilers:










Ivan actually killed Fyodor.


Huh? We are explicitly told that he did not, moreover, the novel makes absolutely no sense at all if that is the case.

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