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 Post subject: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Any recommendations on books, props?

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:07 am 
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The biggest weakness is the fact that there is absolutely no physical evidence to support macro-evolution. Never has been. No one has ever produced any. A top anthropologist admitted that it is the dirty little secret that there is absolutely no evidence to support any of the theories of macro evolution and that all of those evolutionary trees in the textbooks are completely created from someones imagination. They will laugh and say that evolution is scientific fact based on solid evidence ... both the evidence is always from micro-evolution. Micro and macro have are two completely separate bodies of evidence. One cannot be used to support the other... but they ignore that fact and do it all the time. In micro-evolution a moth changes colors or horses are bred to produce a quarter horse. In macro-evolution a fish supposedly changes into a bird. Additionally, all of the macro-evolutionary theories cancel each other out. In other words... they all contradict each other. None of them support the other. Recently science has shown that DNA can be altered through environment, breeding and socialization... which pretty much supports micro-evolution ... but that is no proof that one species can evolve into another.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:19 pm 
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Have you ever heard of Intelligent Design theory? That is the argument that is against evolution basically and the one I believe in because the "intelligent designer" is God. It basically states that the various things on Earth have specific purposes, which could have only been made by a Designer of the Earth. Once again this is true because God had intention of what He was going to make


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:17 pm 
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The latest and greatest among evolution's proponents is genetics as proof of a common ancestor. Its very technical but basically they are saying that some genes have formed in primates and have since gone out of use or were never active in the first place ... but they still appear in various primates, including man. They are called pseudogenes or junk genes. They claim that those genes first appeared before the separate branches of the evolutionary tree formed and therefore are like fingerprints that can be traced back to pre-human origins. As I said... Its technical but evolutionists think it is bullet proof ... They say that this new genetic information is enough to prove evolution even if a transitional fossil is never found.
This guy explains it and refutes it...
https://answersingenesis.org/genetics/d ... e-genomes/

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:52 pm 
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You could try here
http://www.kolbecenter.org/store/

I've read "Creation Rediscovered" by the late Gerard Keane and Fr. Victor Warkulwiz's "The Doctrines of Genesis 1-11".
There are several others there as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:03 am 
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Cardinal Ruffini wrote a book called The Theory of Evolution Judged by Faith and Reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:58 am 
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Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions about Evolution
http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp

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Last edited by EtcumSpiri22-0 on Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:16 am 
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AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Have you ever heard of Intelligent Design theory? That is the argument that is against evolution basically and the one I believe in because the "intelligent designer" is God. It basically states that the various things on Earth have specific purposes, which could have only been made by a Designer of the Earth. Once again this is true because God had intention of what He was going to make
Check out Edward Feser on intelligent design. He is a Thomist.

http://www.edwardfeser.blogspot.com

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/04 ... anism.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/05 ... undup.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/03 ... ument.html

Bassically Feser shows that intelligent design theory is seriously flawed, and is (as much eveolutionary theory) based on a mechanistic world view.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:33 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Have you ever heard of Intelligent Design theory? That is the argument that is against evolution basically and the one I believe in because the "intelligent designer" is God. It basically states that the various things on Earth have specific purposes, which could have only been made by a Designer of the Earth. Once again this is true because God had intention of what He was going to make
Check out Edward Feser on intelligent design. He is a Thomist.

http://www.edwardfeser.blogspot.com

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/04 ... anism.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/05 ... undup.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/03 ... ument.html

Bassically Feser shows that intelligent design theory is seriously flawed, and is (as much eveolutionary theory) based on a mechanistic world view.

Thanks for the links. I like what he says there, but only read a little of it. I really haven't read much on this subject and it isn't one that particularly interests me, pardon any poorly formed thoughts.

I've never much liked ID theory and have always seen it as flawed. Now I haven't been involved enough in evolution debates to ascribe to any particular argument, I'm content with knowing that God made everything, and if he decided to create a system for creatures to evolve somewhat and sometimes interferes to make new ones, well that's all fine with me. Also, I can't see how all the mutualisic associations in nature can be explained by evolution. They aren't uncommon, either, but rather appear to be the norm.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:25 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Have you ever heard of Intelligent Design theory? That is the argument that is against evolution basically and the one I believe in because the "intelligent designer" is God. It basically states that the various things on Earth have specific purposes, which could have only been made by a Designer of the Earth. Once again this is true because God had intention of what He was going to make
Check out Edward Feser on intelligent design. He is a Thomist.

http://www.edwardfeser.blogspot.com

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/04 ... anism.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/05 ... undup.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/03 ... ument.html

Bassically Feser shows that intelligent design theory is seriously flawed, and is (as much eveolutionary theory) based on a mechanistic world view.


Well, many theories are flawed. A scientific theory is a very broad explanation for how the world is. We as Catholics would more so agree with Intelligent Design because it essentially says one being created the universe, for us, that is God. Evolution is flawed as well, there will be both sides. You can't deny Intelligent Design though. I'm saying you cannot test whether The Designer is here. Therefore, you can't falsify Intelligent Design.

I haven't read all of those links you gave yet, but I wanted to express that intelligent Design is more accepted by a someone within the Christan church than say Evolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:51 pm 
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AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Have you ever heard of Intelligent Design theory? That is the argument that is against evolution basically and the one I believe in because the "intelligent designer" is God. It basically states that the various things on Earth have specific purposes, which could have only been made by a Designer of the Earth. Once again this is true because God had intention of what He was going to make
Check out Edward Feser on intelligent design. He is a Thomist.

http://www.edwardfeser.blogspot.com

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/04 ... anism.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/05 ... undup.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/03 ... ument.html

Bassically Feser shows that intelligent design theory is seriously flawed, and is (as much eveolutionary theory) based on a mechanistic world view.


Well, many theories are flawed. A scientific theory is a very broad explanation for how the world is. We as Catholics would more so agree with Intelligent Design because it essentially says one being created the universe, for us, that is God. Evolution is flawed as well, there will be both sides. You can't deny Intelligent Design though. I'm saying you cannot test whether The Designer is here. Therefore, you can't falsify Intelligent Design.

I haven't read all of those links you gave yet, but I wanted to express that intelligent Design is more accepted by a someone within the Christan church than say Evolution.


There is no physical evidence of macro-evolution. There are no transitional fossils that present a water tight argument... anywhere.

The term transitional (intermediate) fossil ... is ambiguous and has been assigned one of two meanings by paleontologists...

In the first definition the term : transitional (intermediate) fossil is used to refer to the entire ensemble of organisms between two time points in the fossil record. Evolutionary biologists will often use this second definition when they have no real understanding of the precise evolutionary pathway that connects two organisms. Yet, in spite of their uncertainty, they are convinced that an evolutionary pathway must exist. They are equally convinced that they will eventually identify that pathway. In the meantime, they deem all the organisms that exist between two time points in the fossil record as transitional forms, irrespective of whether or not they are actually part of an evolutionary sequence.

According to the second definition this term transitional (intermediate) fossil is used to refer to one or more of the organisms that comprise the step by step evolutionary transition of one species into another. If the evolutionary paradigm is to be considered a valid model, then the fossil record needs to be replete, as Darwin stated, with transitional forms documenting the actual transformation of one taxon into another, as defined by this meaning.
In reality, when subjected to the rigors of science ... And again ... confirming the statements of the scientists cited above ...
... Steven Stanley, highly-respected authority from Johns Hopkins and confirmed evolutionist states in his book 'Macroevolution: Pattern and Process':
“The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution (a type of evolution characterized by the gradual change, without divergence, of an entire group of organisms) accomplishing a major morphologic transition and hence offers no evidence that a gradualistic model can be valid.
Steven Jay Gould says this concerning transitional fossils: “The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change"
In “The Return of Hopeful Monsters,” Natural History, vol. 86 (June/July 1977), pp. 22-30.p. 22

Which brings us after 150 years of turning every stone ... back to Charles Darwin's concession to the hard scientific evidence then and now...

Quote: “Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms.” “The case at present must remain inexplicable; and may be truly urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained.” In other words Darwin said ... If no convincing fossil evidence is found then those that reject evolutionary theory have a sound argument.

Hence ...punctuated equilibrium was conceived:
Gould goes on to say in the article cited above: "the principle of natural selection does not require it (gradual change) ... Selection can operate rapidly. ...As a Darwinian, I wish to defend Goldschmidt’s postulate that macroevolution is not simply microevolution extrapolated and that major structural transitions can occur rapidly without a smooth series of intermediate stages. All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt.

Actual scientific research data shows:
Theoretical work by University of Oregon scientists shows that the essential processes making up punctuated equilibrium’s mechanism lead to extinction, not evolution.
Population and habitat fragmentation, along with an altered environment, stand at the center of punctuated equilibrium’s mechanism.
These scientists demonstrated that risk of extinction significantly increases for a species when its population becomes disconnected. Moreover, environmental changes and habitat fragmentation exacerbate a disconnected population’s susceptibility to extinction.

Investigators from Washington University in St. Louis produced field work confirming the work done by the scientists from the University of Oregon. Studying collared lizards in the Missouri Ozarks, the Washington University scientists showed that habitat fragmentation doesn’t drive speciation; rather it leads to extinction.

So...
Punctuated Equilibrium theory is basically this:
1. Evolution happened.
2. The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution.

therefore...
3. Evolution was done in giant leaps, leaving no evidence.

So basically, one theory of evolution with no evidence replaced another theory of evolution with no evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:57 pm 
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AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Have you ever heard of Intelligent Design theory? That is the argument that is against evolution basically and the one I believe in because the "intelligent designer" is God. It basically states that the various things on Earth have specific purposes, which could have only been made by a Designer of the Earth. Once again this is true because God had intention of what He was going to make
Check out Edward Feser on intelligent design. He is a Thomist.

http://www.edwardfeser.blogspot.com

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/04 ... anism.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/05 ... undup.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/03 ... ument.html

Bassically Feser shows that intelligent design theory is seriously flawed, and is (as much eveolutionary theory) based on a mechanistic world view.


Well, many theories are flawed. A scientific theory is a very broad explanation for how the world is. We as Catholics would more so agree with Intelligent Design because it essentially says one being created the universe, for us, that is God. Evolution is flawed as well, there will be both sides. You can't deny Intelligent Design though. I'm saying you cannot test whether The Designer is here. Therefore, you can't falsify Intelligent Design.

I haven't read all of those links you gave yet, but I wanted to express that intelligent Design is more accepted by a someone within the Christan church than say Evolution.

I think you are misunderstanding the point. Intelligent Design is a specific set of arguments. It is more than simply "God created everything". One can disprove some of those arguments and still hold that "God created everything". So it is very possible to deny Intelligent Design.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:21 pm 
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AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Have you ever heard of Intelligent Design theory? That is the argument that is against evolution basically and the one I believe in because the "intelligent designer" is God. It basically states that the various things on Earth have specific purposes, which could have only been made by a Designer of the Earth. Once again this is true because God had intention of what He was going to make
Check out Edward Feser on intelligent design. He is a Thomist.

http://www.edwardfeser.blogspot.com

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/04 ... anism.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/05 ... undup.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/03 ... ument.html

Bassically Feser shows that intelligent design theory is seriously flawed, and is (as much eveolutionary theory) based on a mechanistic world view.


Well, many theories are flawed. A scientific theory is a very broad explanation for how the world is. We as Catholics would more so agree with Intelligent Design because it essentially says one being created the universe, for us, that is God. Evolution is flawed as well, there will be both sides. You can't deny Intelligent Design though. I'm saying you cannot test whether The Designer is here. Therefore, you can't falsify Intelligent Design.

I haven't read all of those links you gave yet, but I wanted to express that intelligent Design is more accepted by a someone within the Christan church than say Evolution.
I don't think you understood my point. You need to read those links. Intelligent Design theory (ID) doesn't simply say that the world is designed. It treats the world in a mechanistic manner, and treats God as a designer comparable to a watch maker. ID is thus NOT compatible with classic Christian theology and classic theism.

Thomas Aquinas would ourtight reject ID theory.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:47 pm 
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My thought: Either the universe is an intellect or it was designed and created by an intellect because 'intellect' can interact with it and in fact is the only means of human interaction with it.


_______________________________________________________________
The original founders of modern science posited that they could use their intellect to make sense of the world
... and that nature was intelligible to the human mind because it was designed by an intellect.
They called it 'Intelligibility'.

_____________________________________________
Newton gave this example of what physicists call 'initial conditions' ... the fine tuning that allows the stability that we depend on in the universe.
Newton assumed that God was the overarching intellect... in his great work " Principia Mathematica"
wrote...
"though these bodies may, indeed, continue in their orbits by the mere laws of gravity, yet they could by no means have at first derived the regular position of the orbits themselves from those laws."
... Isaac Newton

_______________________________________________
In the beginning
.. Genesis 1:1

Empirical evidence of Genesis 1:1:
Hubble discovered that the universe is not eternal. It had a beginning and all the material in the universe started at one specific pinpoint location and has been expanding from that point ever since.
Theoretical evidence:
Einstein did not accept the idea but had to concede based on his own mathematical research on the theory of relativity ... which confirmed Hubble's observation.

Arnol Penzias, co discoverer of the microwave background radiation, a few months before he received the Nobel prize said, “The best data we have concerning the Big Bang is exactly what I would have predicted had I nothing to go on, but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the Bible as a whole".


The idea of an infinitely old universe is a 19th century assumption of philosophers and scientists that rejected the need for God in their paradigm.
Robert Dickie, Princeton Professor has stated that an infinitely old universe would relieve us of the necessity of understanding the origin of matter at any finite time in the past.


________________________________________________________________
"The Cosmological Argument for a Transcendent Designer of the Universe."

Some materialists tried to find a natural explanation for the beginning of the universe in quantum mechanics. However, they were unable to do this. According to the standard Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, you need a conscious observer to go from a probability wave to an actual universe. You would need a mind that is separate from the universe to create it. Other interpretations of quantum mechanics lack an explanation of how an actual universe would arise from an atemporal, immaterial state.

http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/04/the- ... t-for.html

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Last edited by EtcumSpiri22-0 on Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:29 pm 
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"From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science."

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics):Tipler, F.J. 2007. The Physics Of Christianity. New York, Doubleday.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/quotes.html

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Last edited by EtcumSpiri22-0 on Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:42 pm 
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Robert Jastrow, astronomer, physicist
wrote "God and the Astronomers"

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1B6GSO12A ... GSO12ANPRI

"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream."

"He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

"The scientist’s pursuit of the past ends in the moment of creation."

This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. They have always accepted the word of the Bible: In the beginning God created heaven and earth. To which St. Augustine added, “Who can understand this mystery or explain it to others?” It is unexpected because science has had such extraordinary success in tracing the chain of cause and effect backward in time. We have been able to connect the appearance of man on this planet to the crossing of the threshold of life, the manufacture of the chemical ingredients of life within stars that have long since expired, the formation of those stars out of the primal mists, and the expansion and cooling of the parent cloud of gases out of the cosmic fireball.
Now we would like to pursue that inquiry farther back in time, but the barrier to further progress seems insurmountable. It is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation. For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.

http://www.unfitnews.com/authors/RJga6R ... ience.html

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:50 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
My thought: Either the universe is an intellect or it was designed and created by an intellect because 'intellect' can interact with it and in fact is the only means of human interaction with it.
Yes, but Intelligent Design theory is much more specific than that. It specifically treats creation as a machine.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:41 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
AlwaysSayAPrayer wrote:
Have you ever heard of Intelligent Design theory? That is the argument that is against evolution basically and the one I believe in because the "intelligent designer" is God. It basically states that the various things on Earth have specific purposes, which could have only been made by a Designer of the Earth. Once again this is true because God had intention of what He was going to make
Check out Edward Feser on intelligent design. He is a Thomist.

http://www.edwardfeser.blogspot.com

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/04 ... anism.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/05 ... undup.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/03 ... ument.html

Bassically Feser shows that intelligent design theory is seriously flawed, and is (as much eveolutionary theory) based on a mechanistic world view.


Well, many theories are flawed. A scientific theory is a very broad explanation for how the world is. We as Catholics would more so agree with Intelligent Design because it essentially says one being created the universe, for us, that is God. Evolution is flawed as well, there will be both sides. You can't deny Intelligent Design though. I'm saying you cannot test whether The Designer is here. Therefore, you can't falsify Intelligent Design.

I haven't read all of those links you gave yet, but I wanted to express that intelligent Design is more accepted by a someone within the Christan church than say Evolution.
I don't think you understood my point. You need to read those links. Intelligent Design theory (ID) doesn't simply say that the world is designed. It treats the world in a mechanistic manner, and treats God as a designer comparable to a watch maker. ID is thus NOT compatible with classic Christian theology and classic theism.

Thomas Aquinas would ourtight reject ID theory.


I see what you mean by mechanical ways now. the ID theory yes has said mechanic ways, for example a flagella in us. I do believe that God knew what he created, having great intention of everything in the universe. Meaning he created things a specific way with thought. That doesn't mean that everything on this universe is made "mechanically". God knew what he wanted to create. He simply didn't just make the universe without any thought. Maybe the ID theory had poor choice of words because truly we do not have as high of thoughts as God does.
I don't think God is a "watch maker". It's far more complex than that because our thoughts won't be as high as His.


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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:10 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
My thought: Either the universe is an intellect or it was designed and created by an intellect because 'intellect' can interact with it and in fact is the only means of human interaction with it.
Yes, but Intelligent Design theory is much more specific than that. It specifically treats creation as a machine.


But...
intellect is the key to even beginning to understand that there is a machine.

Isaac Newton and other scientists during his time as well as during recent history point out that intellect is the common ground between the created and the creator and it is the tool used to understand both creation and creator.

And...
Physics has recently shown that the observation of an event changes the event.
As illustrated by this animation of the double slit experiment...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ ... 1EF8C97868

Also..
Time and space were initiated and then expanded (big bang). Before that there was no machine, no mass and no volume to contain it. Before the beginning... There was nothing.

Therefore...
An external intellect is required.

_________________
But our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:20


Last edited by EtcumSpiri22-0 on Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Evolution and its flaws...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
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Religion: Christian
Thinks2much wrote:
Any recommendations on books, props?


What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
... Romans 8:31 :)

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But our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:20


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