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 Post subject: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:32 pm 
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Master
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If this is in the wrong location, please move accordingly.

So SSPX came out with a response to Church Militants' most recent report.

Church Militant report:
https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/spotlight-sympathetic-to-perverts?mc_cid=2db309aaa4&mc_eid=558d97526d

SSPX response:
https://sspx.org/en/publications/newsletters/us-district-responds-church-militant-57641

I thought the SSPX response was proper and right, but what bothers me is that some of the most vocal folks about the whole scandal which we have all felt have been the first ones to defend the SSPX.

This should be afforded to ALL priests, not just the Traditionalists ones.

[/END OF VENT]

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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:55 pm 
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there are some things in the video that are plainly twisted around in order to sensationalize.
one example was the letter that one priest wrote to "defend" (as the interviewer claimed) a millionaire parishoner accused of abuse, when it was clear --- if you pause the video to look at the actual letter in more context --- that it wasn't a "defense" of the man, rather a letter written in response to something like, "Tell us how you know this person and your dealings with him." Voris' team takes such a letter -- which of course is nothing but, "Well I know him to be a good person who has donated a lot of money to the chapel, and he's a good family man and well liked, etc. etc." .... which is then spun to sound like the priest had full knowledge of everything the man had done and was purposefully attempted to defend a child touching parishoner (because why? oh, because the priest and the SSPX didn't want to lose the money they were getting from the guy).

Gimme a break.

now, some of the other claims made in the video, we'll just all have to wait to hear the society's promised response on that.

But Voris is Voris, and there's no denying what he's all about...

so we'll see. some of it is, as reported, assuredly troubling to hear at first blush.


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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:27 pm 
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I have met Fr. Wegner (ate Easter dinner with him last year in fact), and the insinuation that his going back tk Europe has a nefarious ulterior motive strikes me as absurd... He already knew at the expiration of his term he would be transferred!

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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:49 am 
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The first SSPX response to a couple of the allegations made in the video:

https://sspx.org/en/publications/newsle ... ling-57684


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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:22 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
I have met Fr. Wegner (ate Easter dinner with him last year in fact), and the insinuation that his going back tk Europe has a nefarious ulterior motive strikes me as absurd... He already knew at the expiration of his term he would be transferred!


agreed. i'm sorry i won't get the chance to have met fr wegner ...but maybe in the future.

but i do know fr. ken novak, and i'm very shocked to hear the allegations about smacking a kid around and also breaking up marriages. that sounds really odd, out of character, and quite frankly, is reminiscent of the he-said-she-said type of BS allegations that come up in any divorce situation.

fr novak is probably one of the top 3 "on fire for Christ" type of priests I may have ever met. he can be a pretty animated character, too, so... i'm disappointed to hear the accusations and allegations about him. I'm not troubled by them.. just sorry to hear them. somebody will have to come up with some real proof positive to change my opinion of him.

i didn't recognize the names of any of the other priests mentioned in the expose'....


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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:57 am 
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Also... to give a slight glimpse into just how shoddy Church Militant's research is for their report ---

At some point in the interview, they mention a former-SSPX priest Laudenschlager as "the first American priest ordained into the SSPX in 1980..."

That's simply not true. He wasn't the first... wasn't even the second... or the third... or even the 10th American priest ordained by +Lefebvre.

The first American ordained as a priest by +Lefebvre was Fr. Gregory Post ..... in 1971. And he's still an SSPX priest today (albeit, pretty much retired due to age now and, to my knowledge, no longer working any circuit). In 2004, he was the first SSPX priest I ever met, working out of the priory in Dickenson TX and on the circuit that included Memphis, Nashville, and Little Rock. Back then, our chapel didn't have a rectory, and so the laity would often sponsor to put him up in their homes when he came to town. He stayed many times at my own house.

To my knowledge, the second American ordained was Clarence Kelly around 1972, and the third was Don Sanborn in 1975.
Kelly and Sanborn were part of "The Nine" American priests who, sadly and unfortunately, split away to form the sedevantist SSPV group.

But I digress. The point is, there were at least TEN American priests ordained by +Lefebvre into the SSPX prior to Laudenschlager... but Church Militant's "rigorous investigation" leads them to identify Laudenschlager as the first American to be ordained by the SSPX.

All it takes is a 30 second google search to verify THAT fact of which American was first. Makes one wonder just what else they've gotten wrong in that story.


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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:50 pm 
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Voris’ recent attacks on SSPX came immediately after Dr Taylor Marshall announced he’s attending the Society. His announcement caused a social media storm. Many attacked him angrily and bitterly. Voris was participating by trying to discredit the SSPX.


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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:33 am 
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I don't buy it.

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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:19 am 
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I'm done with CM, Voris, and the Gordon boys.

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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:30 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't buy it.


don't buy what?


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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:50 am 
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Some of the vile slanders I've read and heard from both sides is saddening. :cry:

It is true that it seems obvious CM has had an ax to grind on the SSPX.......that's been fairly public. That doesn't, however, negate that some of what is being said is untrue.

Unfortunately, in an attempt to soften the blow with a fellow SSPXer it had little effect and said something to the effect that even if it is all true, that the SSPX priest did it in spite of their Catholicism and the Vatican 2 priest did it largely because of it....... :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:20 am 
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tAnGo wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't buy it.


don't buy what?

That it's motivated by getting at Taylor Marshall.

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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:27 am 
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I stopped watching CM after I watched their "documentary" on Masonry which included, no joke, a quote without a source. One of the most damaging pieces of evidence they had was an anonymous quote attributed vaguely to "a mason". At that point, I realized that the investigative quality of CM left much to be desired.

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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:29 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't buy it.


don't buy what?

That it's motivated by getting at Taylor Marshall.


It is more likely motivated by a decade's worth of hostility towards the SSPX and an opportunistic attempt to gain the free marketing of the Marshall/Gordon fallout.

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All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:33 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't buy it.


don't buy what?

That it's motivated by getting at Taylor Marshall.

I don't either.

Something like this takes months to bring together.

However, Taylor called Voris out prior to it's release and it's possible that Taylor was aware this was coming out and saw an opportunity to add fuel to the fire.

There was some planning with him involved in the Pachamama and he gave the impression otherwise so I wouldn't put it passed him.

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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:43 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Some of the vile slanders I've read and heard from both sides is saddening. :cry:

It is true that it seems obvious CM has had an ax to grind on the SSPX.......that's been fairly public. That doesn't, however, negate that some of what is being said is untrue.


agreed.

Quote:
Unfortunately, in an attempt to soften the blow with a fellow SSPXer it had little effect and said something to the effect that even if it is all true, that the SSPX priest did it in spite of their Catholicism and the Vatican 2 priest did it largely because of it....... :shock:


Well, that's maybe understandable if one is of the opinion that ---- generally speaking ---- the majority of the clerical scandal cases are rooted in homosexuality. The novus ordo is known to have allowed a lot of homosexual men into the seminaries over the decades. I believe the SSPX will not confer Holy Orders on a homosexual man IF they are aware of it. Anyway, SSPX seminaries are difficult enough to survive and the missionary life is already a turn off for many, so even if a seminarian were gay, he would probably wash out for some other reason.

If everybody had a policy --- rightly or wrongly --- to exclude homosexuals from the priesthood, then I (for one) doubt that this scandal would be the size it is. There may be other scandals, but pedophilia or pederasty would not be one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:12 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
Well, that's maybe understandable if one is of the opinion that ---- generally speaking ---- the majority of the clerical scandal cases are rooted in homosexuality. The novus ordo is known to have allowed a lot of homosexual men into the seminaries over the decades. I believe the SSPX will not confer Holy Orders on a homosexual man IF they are aware of it. Anyway, SSPX seminaries are difficult enough to survive and the missionary life is already a turn off for many, so even if a seminarian were gay, he would probably wash out for some other reason.

If everybody had a policy --- rightly or wrongly --- to exclude homosexuals from the priesthood, then I (for one) doubt that this scandal would be the size it is. There may be other scandals, but pedophilia or pederasty would not be one of them.


You don't think these decisions or calls were made in spite of their Catholicism?

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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:09 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
Well, that's maybe understandable if one is of the opinion that ---- generally speaking ---- the majority of the clerical scandal cases are rooted in homosexuality. The novus ordo is known to have allowed a lot of homosexual men into the seminaries over the decades. I believe the SSPX will not confer Holy Orders on a homosexual man IF they are aware of it. Anyway, SSPX seminaries are difficult enough to survive and the missionary life is already a turn off for many, so even if a seminarian were gay, he would probably wash out for some other reason.

If everybody had a policy --- rightly or wrongly --- to exclude homosexuals from the priesthood, then I (for one) doubt that this scandal would be the size it is. There may be other scandals, but pedophilia or pederasty would not be one of them.


You don't think these decisions or calls were made in spite of their Catholicism?


i'm not saying that. I'm not taking a position, but just saying what I suspect was implied, which is:
"Vatican2 is the cause of all the Church's problems...if it weren't for V2, you wouldn't have all these flamers in the priesthood, hyuk hyuk hyuk... and they wouldn't be touching all them little boys ... hyuk hyuk hyuk..... but them SSPXers reject V2, and so any them SSPX priesters turn out gay and touching little boys, well, that ain't V2's fault. "

... anyway, that's how I interpreted the statement, but maybe I misread it.


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 Post subject: Re: Church Militant and the SSPX
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:32 am 
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tAnGo wrote:
i'm not saying that. I'm not taking a position, but just saying what I suspect was implied, which is:
"Vatican2 is the cause of all the Church's problems...if it weren't for V2, you wouldn't have all these flamers in the priesthood, hyuk hyuk hyuk... and they wouldn't be touching all them little boys ... hyuk hyuk hyuk..... but them SSPXers reject V2, and so any them SSPX priesters turn out gay and touching little boys, well, that ain't V2's fault. "

... anyway, that's how I interpreted the statement, but maybe I misread it.


Well, it was in the context of calling it a new religion and it's widely known how they feel about V2 so the implication was indeed that without V2, this problem would be less or nonexistent. The amount of mental gymnastics, number of projections and hoops you have to go through to get to that conclusion is astronomical. One can see the problems in Vatican 2, the Liturgy, and pretty much the entirety of the Church......and not need to leap to this. It makes them look plain nutty if I may be frank.

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