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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:51 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
You haven't yet responded to my question Etcum:

What's the alternative to shutting down the country? Would you just allow the numbers to increase and do nothing to try to prevent patients dying because there are too many of them for the doctors and nurses to cope with and not enough ventilators?


The point is that if you start with bad information and selectively choose what you want to hear you can do anything you want and call it good.

South Dakota is following alternative options.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... sR?ocid=sf

This breakthrough is being filtered out for some reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2kUUGV ... Fp7b-XzzVc

Can you just answer the question, Etcum, instead of posting links or making other points. You can post links and make other points after you answer the question, which is the most pertinent question:

What's the alternative to shutting down the country? Would you just allow the numbers to increase and do nothing to try to prevent patients dying because there are too many of them for the doctors and nurses to cope with and not enough ventilators?

Any further cowardly avoidance of answering the question will not go unnoticed!



Lets see, where did I put that TrollOffer. oh yeah, there it is...
Bye.

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Last edited by EtcumSpiri22-0 on Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:52 pm 
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The alternative is simple - develop protocols that protect the most vulnerable and let everyone else live their lives. If someone has high blood pressure, diabetes, is undergoing cancer treatments, elderly, etc., then the law should protect them and allow them to not go to work (and get paid) for a period of time until the CDC says the high-risk is over. Loved-ones might also too be allowed to social distance and keep their jobs.

Rather, we have taken a “scorched Earth” approach that is totally unnecessary. While .66% is 10X higher than the seasonal flu, its still a very, very small number. When one considers that the state of CA has probably gone through its peak and nobody noticed is a strong indicator that this virus ain’t that bad.

The lasting problem is the precedent that has been set. And even more so, what happens when something truly deadly comes along like SARS (9% death rate) and people ignore the orders because we freaked out over Covid-19?

Lastly, while I know receiving the sacraments is a grace and privilege, this is the thing that has me most distressed. We can’t go to Mass or confession (the later without some difficulty now). The wife and I were literally tearing up watching YouTube mass today - and we are not some over the top Uber-Catholic’s either (sorry to those who are, we just don’t roll that way). We never miss Mass, but are hardly models of virtue. And still we are weeping that we can’t go to Mass.

I would rather take the very low risk and continue my life as normal than live this way.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:59 pm 
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+1

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:28 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
The information I posted is accurate.

No, it isn't. It is instead mendacious rubbish from Gateway Pundit.

Quote:
You dont want to talk about that.

Huh? What I have talked about is precisely the fact that the "information" you have posted is not accurate, but is instead largely nonsense.

Quote:
You want to talk about news sources... start a thread.

I'm not talking about "news sources" generally. I am talking about the stuff that YOU post here, and I am telling you that it is dishonest rubbish. I don't need a "new post" for that, do I?

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JOHNSON: "Sir, I have never slept an hour less, nor eat an ounce less meat. I would have knocked the factious dogs on the head, to be sure; but I was not vexed."


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:42 am 
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God is great, beer is good, people are crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:45 am 
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Peetem wrote:
Lastly, while I know receiving the sacraments is a grace and privilege

Receiving the sacraments is not a privilege. It's a duty, therefore it is a right.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:47 am 
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aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:
As of Sunday morning, nine governors ― all Republicans ― have so far refused to issue statewide stay-at-home orders despite calls from public health experts and medical professionals to do so.

It's a good idea to look at the orders in those states and see exactly what is different (hint: not much) from a statewide stay-at-home order.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:35 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
The flu didn't shut down the country last year or the year before or the year before that..

As of Feb 3, 2020:
"The flu remains a higher threat to U.S. public health than the new coronavirus.
This flu season alone has sickened at least 19 million across the U.S. and led to 10,000 deaths and 180,000 hospitalizations."

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/03/the-flu ... virus.html

There are two things you have chosen to ignore, Etcum:
(1) The flu does not cause Intensive Care Units to be massively overwhelmed.
(2) The numbers of Covid-19 cases and deaths are increasing exponentially, and we don't know how many deaths there will be.


The model is flawed ... that's the point.

Example:
In Italy 99% of those that died in their mid/late 70's or 80's, had current sickness when they contracted COVID 19.

49% had 3 or more ongoing sicknesses. 25% had 2, 25% had one.

The medical community routinely counted COVID 19 as cause of death without showing clinical evidence.

Another example of an emerging pattern of shoddy stats:
A man fell and hit his head and ultimately died. He was counted as a COVID 19 victim because he had tested positive.

That’s all very well, but there is a reality which you are refusing to acknowledge: The Intensive Care Units in Italy and Spain have been overwhelmed, and there is a very imminent risk, with the way the numbers are increasing exponentially, that the Intensive Care Units in the United States, and in the UK, will very shortly be overwhelmed too.

So let me ask you the same question I asked Peteem: What's the alternative to shutting down the country? Would you just allow the numbers to increase and do nothing to try to prevent patients dying because there are too many of them for the doctors and nurses to cope with and not enough ventilators?


Peetem wrote:
The alternative is simple - develop protocols that protect the most vulnerable and let everyone else live their lives. If someone has high blood pressure, diabetes, is undergoing cancer treatments, elderly, etc., then the law should protect them and allow them to not go to work (and get paid) for a period of time until the CDC says the high-risk is over. Loved-ones might also too be allowed to social distance and keep their jobs.

Rather, we have taken a “scorched Earth” approach that is totally unnecessary. While .66% is 10X higher than the seasonal flu, its still a very, very small number. When one considers that the state of CA has probably gone through its peak and nobody noticed is a strong indicator that this virus ain’t that bad.

The lasting problem is the precedent that has been set. And even more so, what happens when something truly deadly comes along like SARS (9% death rate) and people ignore the orders because we freaked out over Covid-19?

Lastly, while I know receiving the sacraments is a grace and privilege, this is the thing that has me most distressed. We can’t go to Mass or confession (the later without some difficulty now). The wife and I were literally tearing up watching YouTube mass today - and we are not some over the top Uber-Catholic’s either (sorry to those who are, we just don’t roll that way). We never miss Mass, but are hardly models of virtue. And still we are weeping that we can’t go to Mass.

I would rather take the very low risk and continue my life as normal than live this way.


EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
+1


So why didn't you say that, EtcumSpiri22-0?

The fact that you think it makes sense to ignore such a pertinent question shows that you haven't got a clue about the reality of the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:51 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
The alternative is simple - develop protocols that protect the most vulnerable and let everyone else live their lives. If someone has high blood pressure, diabetes, is undergoing cancer treatments, elderly, etc., then the law should protect them and allow them to not go to work (and get paid) for a period of time until the CDC says the high-risk is over. Loved-ones might also too be allowed to social distance and keep their jobs.


But the vulnerable are already being protected in every place where there are lockdown measures, and even such extreme measures may not be enough to stop ICUs being overwhelmed. So the half measures you have suggested would not prevent ICUs from being overwhelmed. The elderly and vulnerable cannot be completely cut off from everyone else, so if the Coronavirus was allowed to spread freely among everyone else, there would be a much greater spread of the virus to the elderly and vulnerable, spread by domiciliary care workers who visit daily, spread by relatives who care for them 24 hours a day, spread by staff in care homes, spread by doctors, nurses, paramedics, spread by anyone who may have to be in contact with elderly and vulnerable people.


Peetem wrote:
I would rather take the very low risk and continue my life as normal than live this way.

But you are not getting the point. The point of the lockdown measures is not to protect people like you who are at very low risk, the point is to prevent everyone, including people like you, from getting the virus so that you don't spread the virus to people who, unlike you, are not at very low risk.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:49 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Peetem wrote:
The alternative is simple - develop protocols that protect the most vulnerable and let everyone else live their lives. If someone has high blood pressure, diabetes, is undergoing cancer treatments, elderly, etc., then the law should protect them and allow them to not go to work (and get paid) for a period of time until the CDC says the high-risk is over. Loved-ones might also too be allowed to social distance and keep their jobs.


But the vulnerable are already being protected in every place where there are lockdown measures, and even such extreme measures may not be enough to stop ICUs being overwhelmed. So the half measures you have suggested would not prevent ICUs from being overwhelmed. The elderly and vulnerable cannot be completely cut off from everyone else, so if the Coronavirus was allowed to spread freely among everyone else, there would be a much greater spread of the virus to the elderly and vulnerable, spread by domiciliary care workers who visit daily, spread by relatives who care for them 24 hours a day, spread by staff in care homes, spread by doctors, nurses, paramedics, spread by anyone who may have to be in contact with elderly and vulnerable people.


Peetem wrote:
I would rather take the very low risk and continue my life as normal than live this way.

But you are not getting the point. The point of the lockdown measures is not to protect people like you who are at very low risk, the point is to prevent everyone, including people like you, from getting the virus so that you don't spread the virus to people who, unlike you, are not at very low risk.


....and I always wondered how dictators take control of so many countries. Now I know.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:19 pm 
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Peteem, if you said that to the doctors and nurses in an Intensive Care Unit, what do you think their response would be?


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:39 pm 
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Better to live in a dictatorship where the common good is taken seriously than a democracy (or whatever) where it isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:58 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Better to live in a dictatorship where the common good is taken seriously than a democracy (or whatever) where it isn't.



Best to handle all things with common sense.

If possible.

Platitude for the day from a sheltered in place for weeks now old fogey.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:05 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
The flu didn't shut down the country last year or the year before or the year before that..

As of Feb 3, 2020:
"The flu remains a higher threat to U.S. public health than the new coronavirus.
This flu season alone has sickened at least 19 million across the U.S. and led to 10,000 deaths and 180,000 hospitalizations."

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/03/the-flu ... virus.html

There are two things you have chosen to ignore, Etcum:
(1) The flu does not cause Intensive Care Units to be massively overwhelmed.
(2) The numbers of Covid-19 cases and deaths are increasing exponentially, and we don't know how many deaths there will be.


The model is flawed ... that's the point.

Example:
In Italy 99% of those that died in their mid/late 70's or 80's, had current sickness when they contracted COVID 19.

49% had 3 or more ongoing sicknesses. 25% had 2, 25% had one.

The medical community routinely counted COVID 19 as cause of death without showing clinical evidence.

Another example of an emerging pattern of shoddy stats:
A man fell and hit his head and ultimately died. He was counted as a COVID 19 victim because he had tested positive.

That’s all very well, but there is a reality which you are refusing to acknowledge: The Intensive Care Units in Italy and Spain have been overwhelmed, and there is a very imminent risk, with the way the numbers are increasing exponentially, that the Intensive Care Units in the United States, and in the UK, will very shortly be overwhelmed too.

So let me ask you the same question I asked Peteem: What's the alternative to shutting down the country? Would you just allow the numbers to increase and do nothing to try to prevent patients dying because there are too many of them for the doctors and nurses to cope with and not enough ventilators?


Peetem wrote:
The alternative is simple - develop protocols that protect the most vulnerable and let everyone else live their lives. If someone has high blood pressure, diabetes, is undergoing cancer treatments, elderly, etc., then the law should protect them and allow them to not go to work (and get paid) for a period of time until the CDC says the high-risk is over. Loved-ones might also too be allowed to social distance and keep their jobs.

Rather, we have taken a “scorched Earth” approach that is totally unnecessary. While .66% is 10X higher than the seasonal flu, its still a very, very small number. When one considers that the state of CA has probably gone through its peak and nobody noticed is a strong indicator that this virus ain’t that bad.

The lasting problem is the precedent that has been set. And even more so, what happens when something truly deadly comes along like SARS (9% death rate) and people ignore the orders because we freaked out over Covid-19?

Lastly, while I know receiving the sacraments is a grace and privilege, this is the thing that has me most distressed. We can’t go to Mass or confession (the later without some difficulty now). The wife and I were literally tearing up watching YouTube mass today - and we are not some over the top Uber-Catholic’s either (sorry to those who are, we just don’t roll that way). We never miss Mass, but are hardly models of virtue. And still we are weeping that we can’t go to Mass.

I would rather take the very low risk and continue my life as normal than live this way.


EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
+1


So why didn't you say that, EtcumSpiri22-0?

The fact that you think it makes sense to ignore such a pertinent question shows that you haven't got a clue about the reality of the situation.


I gave up talking to you because you live in the illusion that you are creating a pinch point and then you start in with the insults when you dont understand my responses.. You cant help trolling and you dont have a filter to know it. I just dont bother with that narcissistic mess.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:54 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
I gave up talking to you because you live in the illusion that you are creating a pinch point and then you start in with the insults when you dont understand my responses.. You cant help trolling and you dont have a filter to know it. I just dont bother with that narcissistic mess.

I asked two people the exact same, most pertinent question, and this is what you have chosen to resort to EtcumSpiri22-0, rather than facing up to the question, which Peteem was able and willing to respond to, without any problem:
Denise Dee wrote:
You haven't yet responded to my question Etcum:

What's the alternative to shutting down the country? Would you just allow the numbers to increase and do nothing to try to prevent patients dying because there are too many of them for the doctors and nurses to cope with and not enough ventilators?

You really need to have a good look at yourself, EtcumSpiri22-0.

To describe that question as "trolling" or "a pinch point" shows where your head is at and that you have no grasp of the reality of the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:35 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
I gave up talking to you because you live in the illusion that you are creating a pinch point and then you start in with the insults when you dont understand my responses.. You cant help trolling and you dont have a filter to know it. I just dont bother with that narcissistic mess.

I asked two people the exact same, most pertinent question, and this is what you have chosen to resort to EtcumSpiri22-0, rather than facing up to the question, which Peteem was able and willing to respond to, without any problem:
Denise Dee wrote:
You haven't yet responded to my question Etcum:

What's the alternative to shutting down the country? Would you just allow the numbers to increase and do nothing to try to prevent patients dying because there are too many of them for the doctors and nurses to cope with and not enough ventilators?

You really need to have a good look at yourself, EtcumSpiri22-0.

To describe that question as "trolling" or "a pinch point" shows where your head is at and that you have no grasp of the reality of the situation.


EtcumSpiri22-0 is right.

Its why I'm done trying to explain things too. Its the same M.O.: don't listen to what was said or try to understand, pick apart certain specific words used in the response and debate the meaning of those chosen words, fire off an endless litany of questions as part of the response, all the while maintain on air of "I'm smarter than you and you simply don't understand" tinged with consternation and admonition.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:13 am 
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Peetem wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
I gave up talking to you because you live in the illusion that you are creating a pinch point and then you start in with the insults when you dont understand my responses.. You cant help trolling and you dont have a filter to know it. I just dont bother with that narcissistic mess.

I asked two people the exact same, most pertinent question, and this is what you have chosen to resort to EtcumSpiri22-0, rather than facing up to the question, which Peteem was able and willing to respond to, without any problem:
Denise Dee wrote:
You haven't yet responded to my question Etcum:

What's the alternative to shutting down the country? Would you just allow the numbers to increase and do nothing to try to prevent patients dying because there are too many of them for the doctors and nurses to cope with and not enough ventilators?

You really need to have a good look at yourself, EtcumSpiri22-0.

To describe that question as "trolling" or "a pinch point" shows where your head is at and that you have no grasp of the reality of the situation.


EtcumSpiri22-0 is right.

Its why I'm done trying to explain things too. Its the same M.O.: don't listen to what was said or try to understand, pick apart certain specific words used in the response and debate the meaning of those chosen words, fire off an endless litany of questions as part of the response, all the while maintain on air of "I'm smarter than you and you simply don't understand" tinged with consternation and admonition.

Maybe I am smarter than you, Peteem, at least in the sense of being less foolish in regard to the reality of Covid-19. Has that not occurred to you? Most people are smarter than you, in this respect. You don’t have to explain anything to me, just try explaining your callous point of view to the doctors and nurses in ICUs.


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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:48 am 
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You just made my point.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:25 pm 
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https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/from-our-experts/the-unequal-cost-of-social-distancing

"Social distancing will save lives.(i) Its economic costs are staggering. While frustrating but manageable for many people(ii), the economic fallout of social distancing is brutal for the poorest, most vulnerable and marginalized members of our society. Even looking at the issue purely in terms of lives lost, injuries sustained, and lifelong psychological damage, there are tradeoffs that we feel have not been sufficiently acknowledged.

Unemployment will lead to increases in suicide, substance abuse, domestic violence, homelessness and food insecurity. Substance abuse itself—especially the opioid crisis—has already significantly reduced life expectancy in the U.S., and that has been during a time of relative prosperity. Under the current circumstances, it is entirely possible we will see such an impact again. Domestic violence is also deadly, more so now with abusers finding themselves frustrated and at home far more than normal."

Folks are probably smarter too than Stefanie DeLuca, James Coleman Professor of Sociology & Social Policy, Nick Papageorge, Broadus Mitchell Associate Professor of Economics and Emma Kalish, PhD student in Economics who authored this article.

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 Post subject: Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Meter
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:55 pm 
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Imagine saving lives at the cost of the economy.

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