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 Post subject: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:21 pm 
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https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... says-44423

Setting aside the fraught issue of anti-Semitism, I'm curious about the first two points, which I find quite possibly correct.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:20 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/chesterton-sainthood-cause-will-not-advance-bishop-doyle-says-44423

Setting aside the fraught issue of anti-Semitism, I'm curious about the first two points, which I find quite possibly correct.



I have heard the 1st and the third.

He was much more a cigar smoker than a pipe smoker.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:01 pm 
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What does the Bishop mean by “personal spirituality”?

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:20 pm 
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That was one of my questions. Perhaps this is heroic virtue under another name. And I'd that's it, then one can reasonably ask, "Did he strike people as remarkably holy?" I don't know the answer.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:14 am 
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The first point interests me because it seems to me that many Catholics in places like Northern Europe would only join a saintly cult after a canonisation, mostly because of centralised thinking, where people just defer to Rome (which seems to be quite ubiquitous in the UK). This is just my speculation and I might be wrong.

In addition it seems to me - and I might be wrong or just prejudiced, of course - that a cult of local devotion would sooner develop in places like Italy or Mexico than in England because it is more acceptable part of the culture, because Catholicism is stronger there than it is in the UK, and because the UK still has a lot of anti-Catholicism.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:25 pm 
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I suppose a loud "harrumph!" is out of the question?

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:53 am 
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https://cruxnow.com/church-in-uk-and-ir ... pert-says/

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:11 am 
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I don't think it has much to do with Chesterton's being a layman

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:21 am 
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Dale Ahlquist made much the same charge. I am still not sure I agree with it.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:27 am 
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The link is Ahlquist.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:37 am 
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Ah. I think I saw it elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:39 am 
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If this is "heroic virtue" then every Catholic convert should be canonized:

Quote:
Citing a quote from Chesterton’s former Anglican pastor, who said that “I’m glad Chesterton is becoming Catholic, he was never a very good Anglican,” Ahlquist explained that prior to his conversion, Chesterton never went to church, but he never missed a Mass after becoming Catholic.

Ahlquist said there are also accounts of Chesterton being “emotionally shaken and sweating” before receiving communion. Asked about it, Chesterton replied that “I’m frightened of that tremendous reality,” he said.

I'm sure there's more that could be said, but my reaction to these two anecdotes is "big whoop".

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:24 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I don't think it has much to do with Chesterton's being a layman



I don't either.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
The link is Ahlquist.


I met Dale Ahlquist a few months ago. He likes Chesterton as an apostle of the Common Sense. You can watch his show on EWTN.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:43 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/chesterton-sainthood-cause-will-not-advance-bishop-doyle-says-44423

Setting aside the fraught issue of anti-Semitism, I'm curious about the first two points, which I find quite possibly correct.


Was there a local cult of Paul VI? I’ve always found this requirement kind of “flexible.”

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:19 pm 
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The more I think about this the more it depresses me.

The bar to heaven is so very, very, very high. And while GKC may have “made the cut” so to speak, we’ll never know as the Church won’t now answer the question. And if someone who appears on many levels, at least to me, as a pretty holy “ordinary joe” can’t be called a saint, what hope is there for so many other holy “ordinary joe’s”? I guess it would help give me more hope if that would happen.

Not trying to diminish what constitutes a saint either.

But if the bar is heroic virtue, well frankly I don’t know anybody who’ll make the cut.

Edited to fix a major faux pas (heretic to heroic).. :oops:

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Last edited by Peetem on Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:30 pm 
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Heretic virtue? :D

It doesn't take heroic virtue to get to Heaven, but the Church wants to canonized only outstanding examples.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:18 am 
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Some while back I saw Alhquist hem and haw when asked what heroic virtue GKC had.

Regardless of the prudence of recent canonizations, canonization is not about determining the someone made it to heaven, not chiefly at least, even if the infallible character of it extends only that far.

It is an act ordering the universal Church to venerate in particular a given individual. Frankly, this purpose was undermined somewhat by the exponential increase in canonizations by John Paul II, as most are hardly able to be known, let alone venerated by the universal Church in practice.

And the idea that blessed is only a stepping stone to saint also loses sight of its meaning.... A blessed is one that either may be venerated (not must) or whose veneration is mandated only to some particular Church or order.

Among pre-canonization saints, blesseds are those that enjoyed local veneration, saints universal.

Now, regardless of what one thinks of Chesterton (and I have run the gamut myself on that) as an author, the question must be about the benefit of a cultus. Try as I migyt, I cannot see him as exhibiting heroic virtue, nor do I see anything other than fandom among those pushing for it. And the danger of confusing fandon for a cultus urges caution.

Aside from the anti-Semitic aspects (and to be fair, Chesterton was not hateful, but nor would his views be remotely acceptable to any today), the rest of the bishop's reasons strike me as incontrovertible

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:23 am 
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Do you know what the "personal spirituality" thing is about? I wasn't familiar with that as a part of the process for opening a cause.

"Confusion of fandom for cultus" is an apt description of what I think is happening.

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 Post subject: Re: No cause for Chesterton
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:58 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Some while back I saw Alhquist hem and haw when asked what heroic virtue GKC had.

Regardless of the prudence of recent canonizations, canonization is not about determining the someone made it to heaven, not chiefly at least, even if the infallible character of it extends only that far.

It is an act ordering the universal Church to venerate in particular a given individual. Frankly, this purpose was undermined somewhat by the exponential increase in canonizations by John Paul II, as most are hardly able to be known, let alone venerated by the universal Church in practice.

And the idea that blessed is only a stepping stone to saint also loses sight of its meaning.... A blessed is one that either may be venerated (not must) or whose veneration is mandated only to some particular Church or order.

Among pre-canonization saints, blesseds are those that enjoyed local veneration, saints universal.

Now, regardless of what one thinks of Chesterton (and I have run the gamut myself on that) as an author, the question must be about the benefit of a cultus. Try as I migyt, I cannot see him as exhibiting heroic virtue, nor do I see anything other than fandom among those pushing for it. And the danger of confusing fandon for a cultus urges caution.

Aside from the anti-Semitic aspects (and to be fair, Chesterton was not hateful, but nor would his views be remotely acceptable to any today), the rest of the bishop's reasons strike me as incontrovertible


I'm only qualified to comment on a portion of your last sentence. I agree.

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