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 Post subject: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -UPDATED
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:19 am 
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If it happens in CA it will likely take root and spread. Please pray the assembly will reject this horrible bill. It passed the Senate 30 to 4 with 6 not voting.
https://www.scd.org/news/bishop-jaime-s ... confession


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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:05 am 
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:pray:


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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:57 am 
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I have not read the proposed law yet but unfortunately, thanks to the pink mafia, I no longer take what a bishop says in relation to anything having to do with sex abuse at face value.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:19 am 
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I'm not sure what that has to do with the proposed law. A priest can't reveal what he's been told I'm confession, no matter what it is and who confessed it. Period, end of story. Priests have been martyred rather than break the seal. I hope I would have the courage to do the same if it came to that.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:49 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm not sure what that has to do with the proposed law. A priest can't reveal what he's been told I'm confession, no matter what it is and who confessed it. Period, end of story. Priests have been martyred rather than break the seal. I hope I would have the courage to do the same if it came to that.


I have had priests who said the same.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:31 am 
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I understand that but pray that this law is not passed so our priests are not put in that position.


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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:17 am 
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I know. I was responding to Will.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:04 pm 
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That makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:31 pm 
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Yes I understand and agree about the seal of confession. And I assume the state dosen't really understand it. But as I said I still haven't read what the bill says so I will hold off until I have an informed opinion on the matter.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:18 pm 
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Honestly I hope it does pass because it will immediately be challenged in the courts and we need a Supreme Court verdict shutting this down permanently, and before you even say it, yes, the Supreme Court will declare laws like this unconstitutional and will do it unanimously, the Court always decides in favor of religious freedom and almost always does it unanimously.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:18 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Honestly I hope it does pass because it will immediately be challenged in the courts and we need a Supreme Court verdict shutting this down permanently, and before you even say it, yes, the Supreme Court will declare laws like this unconstitutional and will do it unanimously, the Court always decides in favor of religious freedom and almost always does it unanimously.

+1

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:12 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Honestly I hope it does pass because it will immediately be challenged in the courts and we need a Supreme Court verdict shutting this down permanently, and before you even say it, yes, the Supreme Court will declare laws like this unconstitutional and will do it unanimously, the Court always decides in favor of religious freedom and almost always does it unanimously.

Are you sure about that? Since the issue involved is abuse, the bill has been softened, and with precedent like Arlene flowers?

Now, if the SCOTUS did decide in favour of the seal, it would be a win for foreign countries too - when foreign justices refer to this while adjudicating similar cases in their territory.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:51 pm 
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I ... sigh ... think Doom is right. I'm not as sure as he is, and there would be fireworks with attempts to get the Catholic justices to recuse themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:03 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I ... sigh ... think Doom is right. I'm not as sure as he is, and there would be fireworks with attempts to get the Catholic justices to recuse themselves.


I ask in ignorance

Would Reynolds v. United States (1878) have any bearing on the question?

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:56 pm 
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Gay marriage has been forced on the entire country because the people of California twice voted to uphold traditional marriage and were spectacularly overturned by the Supreme Court. I would not count on the courts to do the right thing.

This is alarming enough that not only was the Bishop's letter read at every Mass at every Church in the Diocese on Sunday but time was given during Mass for people to sign letters of protest which were collected to be sorted and sent to the appropriate Assemblymember. I can't think of anything in my memory that was handled that way except the Bishop's Annual Appeal. Even when political issues have been addressed it has been left with a petition to sign in the back of the Church after Mass. Clearly this is not a political issue (thus the pot here in the Pub rather than the politics forum) but an attack on the rights of Catholics to practice their Faith unimpeded by the government.

The picture of a Catholic priest being jailed for refusing to violate his vows anywhere in the United States is shocking. I pray it doesn't go that far.


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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:15 pm 
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Not to nitpick ... Ok, to nitpick. A priest isn't bound by a vow or promise not to break the seal. This can be seen from the fact that a layperson who is aware of what was said in confession (overheard, interpreter) is also bound by the seal. According to Jone, it's a matter of natural law, divine positive law, and canon law.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:54 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
According to Jone, it's a matter of natural law, divine positive law, and canon law.


Can you give me more information on this point, Father? I hadn't though natural law would come into play with a Sacrament, which involves, well, supernatural stuff. Would the natural law argument for the seal be essentially the same as the case against detraction? Also, is there a source/explanation for the seal being in Divine law?

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:15 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Not to nitpick ... Ok, to nitpick. A priest isn't bound by a vow or promise not to break the seal. This can be seen from the fact that a layperson who is aware of what was said in confession (overheard, interpreter) is also bound by the seal. According to Jone, it's a matter of natural law, divine positive law, and canon law.


Conceded but doesn't change the point.


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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:31 pm 
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Zeno wrote:
Gay marriage has been forced on the entire country because the people of California twice voted to uphold traditional marriage and were spectacularly overturned by the Supreme Court. I would not count on the courts to do the right thing.

.


But even all these years later, and contrary to the expectation of pretty much every man, woman, and child on the face of the Earth, there has still been no attempt to force it onto the churches. Everyone expected that within no more than a year, there would be legal action against churches that refused to perform gay marriages, and yet, there has been nothing, and it is clear there never will be.

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 Post subject: Re: CA legislature targets seal of Confessional -please pray
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:32 pm 
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Quote:
it is clear there never will be.
Not to me.

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