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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:04 pm 
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So what is CM's agenda, what are they trying to prove? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:30 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
So what is CM's agenda, what are they trying to prove? :scratch:


Are you SERIOUSLY not familiar with Church Militant, formerly Catholic Vortex i.e. the Internet outlet of Michael Voris? Can you really not figure out what their 'agenda' is? Are you really this naive? :?

Dude, I don't mean to sound rude but based on what I've heard about you during the last decade or so that you've been on here sharing your life with us, it looks to me like you are older than me, you have more life experience than me, you've experienced more of the dark side of life than I have, you've been to many of the dark corners of this world that I've never personally been to and have only heard about second hand. I've led a very sheltered and pampered life by comparison to yours, I admit that your life has been much harsher than mine, at least that is what I would conclude based on what you've told us over the years.

If there is one of us who ought to be the cockeyed optimist, it ought to be me. And if there is one of us that ought to be the bitter, disillusioned cynic who distrusts everything he sees, it ought to be YOU. How is it that our positions are exactly the opposite of what they ought to be?


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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:38 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
So what is CM's agenda, what are they trying to prove? :scratch:

You're smart. Given what you now know CM left out, what does spinning the stories the way they did accomplish?

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Ok, it's just that they seem to have so much support from faithful Catholics around the web, including Mother Mariam, fmka Rosiland Moss. Are they trying to bring down the current Church and return us to pre-Vatican II or something?

Sure, I've been to the darkside of life, but not in this manner, I mean no conspiracies or trying to bring unrest to the masses...

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:44 pm 
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Although Fr. Larry Richards did call them evil and of the devil! :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Little surprised no one has an answer here other than calling me naïve or saying I'm smart enough to know...

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:32 pm 
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well the answer would pretty much be "NO", since so much was offered to contradict what cm had to offer :wave

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Remember, I didn't (and won't) watch the video :fyi:

Given that, and inferring from what I've seen in comments, then I would say that some of what is presented in the stories is factual, but vastly incomplete and misleading.

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:36 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:


Given that, and inferring from what I've seen in comments, then I would say that some of what is presented in the stories is factual, but vastly incomplete and misleading.


Classic agitprop


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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Not what I meant, what is their agenda, what is their goal, motive, end game...?

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Remember, I didn't (and won't) watch the video :fyi:

Given that, and inferring from what I've seen in comments, then I would say that some of what is presented in the stories is factual, but vastly incomplete and misleading.

Much like the traditional news networks, i.e. ABC, CBS, NBC and their associated cable versions: "[S]ome is factual, but vastly incomplete and [intentionaly] misleading."

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:12 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Not what I meant, what is their agenda, what is their goal, motive, end game...?

They are, for the lack of a better term, "traditionalist" Catholics.

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:48 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Not what I meant, what is their agenda, what is their goal, motive, end game...?


Have you seriously never heard of Michael Voris? I know that you have heard of him because we've discussed him here 1,000 times and you are one of the people who always used to bring him up, frequently.

Their agenda is OBVIOUS, they are extreme Traditionalist, abolish the Novus Ordo, make the Latin Mass the only Mass offered anywhere, excommunicate all the 'liberals' by which they mean 'anyone who disagrees with them', anti-Pope Francis, Anti-Vatican II etc etc etc

But then, you already know this, I don't understand why you're pretending not to understand it because I know that this is an agenda that you do not support.


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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:59 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Not what I meant, what is their agenda, what is their goal, motive, end game...?

They are, for the lack of a better term, "traditionalist" Catholics.


Are they? They're pretty Novus friendly to my knowledge.

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:06 am 
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Doom wrote:
Their agenda is OBVIOUS, they are extreme Traditionalist, abolish the Novus Ordo, make the Latin Mass the only Mass offered anywhere, excommunicate all the 'liberals' by which they mean 'anyone who disagrees with them', anti-Pope Francis, Anti-Vatican II etc etc etc


CM has opposed criticizing the Pope for years, part of the significance of their recent comments on the Vilgano controversy is that they met their threshold.

Michael Voris has been very strong in his condemnation of the SSPX especially for saying that one could opt out of Sunday mass if it was only available in the NO and I never heard him or CM call for the abolition of the Novus Ordo (not that I pay too much attention to them). Do you have a source?

Voris' line to my reconciliation has always been "Vatican II was misinterpreted" which is pretty standard JPII/BXVI conservative.

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:10 am 
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Sabbath wrote:
Not what I meant, what is their agenda, what is their goal, motive, end game...?

Michael Voris (who is in charge of CM) has been concerned for years about corruption and moral laxity. Sadly, there's never been a want of either in the Church.

Initially, his MO was to seize upon an issue which most orthodox Catholics would agree was indeed an issue, propose a "burn the place down, burn it with fire, dynamite the remains" solution, and cast aspersions at those who took issue with his proposed solution. He (and his followers) have pretty much lost the ability to believe that someone could have good motives, and even good judgment, for not following the CM party line.

Their agenda is a more faithful Church. Their methods are the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:25 am 
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What most alarms me in these days is when the folks that have been branded tin-foil hat nutters on the political front, on the religious front, on health and social matters--when it turns out that they are being proven right about the meat of the things they oppose.

I don't have a CM or Voris tattoo, fyi.

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:40 am 
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Note what I said above; Voris et al. are often right about the problem (though I do think they have reached the stage of seeing it everywhere, even where it's absent); they are wrong about how to fix it.

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:31 am 
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BlueyedMule wrote:
What most alarms me in these days is when the folks that have been branded tin-foil hat nutters on the political front, on the religious front, on health and social matters--when it turns out that they are being proven right about the meat of the things they oppose.

I don't have a CM or Voris tattoo, fyi.

This right here.

Right now we have a public mess blowing up in our faces all over the globe, but specifically in our own backyard. Have we learned nothing???? "Whistle-blowers" and maligned accusers are being vindicated right and left. Cover-ups are being exposed all around us, at the highest levels. This is not tin-foil hat stuff -- this is the sad state of decay today. It's been going on for decades. Dioceses have paid out billions of dollars in settlements and attorneys fees.

There isn't enough space in this thread to dissect why some of these men have done the evil things that they've done (did some of these priests/bishops/cardinals start out with faith, then lose it? did they never have faith, but were opportunists? worse?).

You cannot credibly accuse Church Militant of having a pattern of false allegations. They can be accused of being coarse and abrasive. So what. Playing nicey-nicey and being polite is not a virtue if one fails to uproot the evil that has been reported. We have been offered credible evidence, on a global level, from multiple credible sources, that some shepherds have been abusing the flock, and have had the help of other shepherds in covering it up. And we have further evidence that faithful, orthodox priests and seminarians have been railroaded when they voiced concern.

Cardinal McCarrick is known to be quite affable. He probably never ruffled feathers or came across as abrasive like CM and Michael Voris. Ditto for all the polite, genteel Catholic journalists who've been giving Cupich, et. al. air time and column space, with soft questions and nodding heads. Pope Francis seems very nice, too, but I have reservations about his track record (and no, I am not accusing him of being an anti-pope).

I really like Fr. Larry Richards, and I don't believe that I have to "choose" between him and CM. I also respect Alice von Hildebrand, Mother Miriam, and others who are aligned with Michael Voris's version of what's going on. I am passed being worried about CM's bulldog abrasiveness. I am more concerned with truth than I am with manners, in this case.

Jesus's message was divisive. The apostles got a lot of people angry with their inflammatory speech. That has also been the case with countless good people, whether in the Church, or in the political or corporate sphere. It's always easier to tell ourselves that the whistle-blowers, accusers and investigators are exaggerating, because the alternative means that we have to make costly decisions.

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 Post subject: Re: Are These Stories True?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:48 am 
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MySweetLord wrote:
BlueyedMule wrote:
What most alarms me in these days is when the folks that have been branded tin-foil hat nutters on the political front, on the religious front, on health and social matters--when it turns out that they are being proven right about the meat of the things they oppose.

I don't have a CM or Voris tattoo, fyi.

This right here.

Right now we have a public mess blowing up in our faces all over the globe, but specifically in our own backyard. Have we learned nothing???? "Whistle-blowers" and maligned accusers are being vindicated right and left. Cover-ups are being exposed all around us, at the highest levels. This is not tin-foil hat stuff -- this is the sad state of decay today. It's been going on for decades. Dioceses have paid out billions of dollars in settlements and attorneys fees.

There isn't enough space in this thread to dissect why some of these men have done the evil things that they've done (did some of these priests/bishops/cardinals start out with faith, then lose it? did they never have faith, but were opportunists? worse?).

You cannot credibly accuse Church Militant of having a pattern of false allegations. They can be accused of being coarse and abrasive. So what. Playing nicey-nicey and being polite is not a virtue if one fails to uproot the evil that has been reported. We have been offered credible evidence, on a global level, from multiple credible sources, that some shepherds have been abusing the flock, and have had the help of other shepherds in covering it up. And we have further evidence that faithful, orthodox priests and seminarians have been railroaded when they voiced concern.

Cardinal McCarrick is known to be quite affable. He probably never ruffled feathers or came across as abrasive like CM and Michael Voris. Ditto for all the polite, genteel Catholic journalists who've been giving Cupich, et. al. air time and column space, with soft questions and nodding heads. Pope Francis seems very nice, too, but I have reservations about his track record (and no, I am not accusing him of being an anti-pope).

I really like Fr. Larry Richards, and I don't believe that I have to "choose" between him and CM. I also respect Alice von Hildebrand, Mother Miriam, and others who are aligned with Michael Voris's version of what's going on. I am passed being worried about CM's bulldog abrasiveness. I am more concerned with truth than I am with manners, in this case.

Jesus's message was divisive. The apostles got a lot of people angry with their inflammatory speech. That has also been the case with countless good people, whether in the Church, or in the political or corporate sphere. It's always easier to tell ourselves that the whistle-blowers, accusers and investigators are exaggerating, because the alternative means that we have to make costly decisions.


But in order that the desired fruit may be derived from this apostolate and this zeal for teaching, and that Christ may be formed in all, be it remembered, Venerable Brethren, that no means is more efficacious than charity. "For the Lord is not in the earthquake" (III Kings xix., II) - it is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal. On the contrary, harm is done more often than good by taunting men harshly with their faults, and reproving their vices with asperity. True the Apostle exhorted Timothy: "Accuse, beseech, rebuke," but he took care to add: "with all patience" (II. Tim.iv., 2). Jesus has certainly left us examples of this. "Come to me," we find Him saying, "come to me all ye that labor and are burdened and I will refresh you" (Matth. xi., 28). And by those that labor and are burdened he meant only those who are slaves of sin and error. What gentleness was that shown by the Divine Master! What tenderness, what compassion towards all kinds of misery! Isaias has marvelously described His heart in the words: "I will set my spirit upon him; he shall not contend, nor cry out; the bruised reed he will not break, he will not extinguish the smoking flax" (Is. xlii., I, s.). This charity, "patient and kind" (I. Cor. xiii., 4.), will extend itself also to those who are hostile to us and persecute us. "We are reviled," thus did St. Paul protest, "and we bless; we are persecuted and we suffer it; we are blasphemed and we entreat" (I. Cor., iv., 12, s.). They perhaps seem to be worse than they really are. Their associations with others, prejudice, the counsel, advice and example of others, and finally an ill advised shame have dragged them to the side of the impious; but their wills are not so depraved as they themselves would seek to make people believe. Who will prevent us from hoping that the flame of Christian charity may dispel the darkness from their minds and bring to them light and the peace of God? It may be that the fruit of our labors may be slow in coming, but charity wearies not with waiting, knowing that God prepares His rewards not for the results of toil but for the good will shown in it.

no. 13, E Supremi, Pope St Pius X

Saint James says, plainly and unreservedly, that "the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God."Of course it is a duty to resist evil and to repress the faults of those for whom we are responsible, steadily and firmly, but gently and quietly. Nothing so stills the elephant when enraged as the sight of a lamb; nor does anything break the force of a cannon ball so well as wool. Correction given in anger, however tempered by reason, never has so much effect as that which is given altogether without anger; for the reasonable soul being naturally subject to reason, it is a mere tyranny which subjects it to passion, and whereinsoever reason is led by passion it becomes odious, and its just rule obnoxious. When a monarch visits a country peaceably the people are gratified and flattered; but if the king has to take his armies through the land, even on behalf of the public welfare, his visit is sure to be unwelcome and harmful, because, however strictly military discipline may be enforced, there will always be some mischief done to the people. Just so when reason prevails, and administers reproof, correction, and punishment in a calm spirit, although it be strict, every one approves and is content; but if reason be hindered by anger and vexation (which Saint Augustine calls her soldiers) there will be more fear than love, and reason itself will be despised and resisted. The same Saint Augustine, writing to Profuturus, says that it is better to refuse entrance to any even the least semblance of anger, however just; and that because once entered in, it is hard to be got rid of, and what was but a little mote soon waxes into a great beam. For if anger tarries till night, and the sun goes down upon our wrath (a thing expressly forbidden by the Apostle), there is no longer any way of getting rid of it; it feeds upon endless false fancies; for no angry man ever yet but thought his anger just.

Depend upon it, it is better to learn how to live without being angry than to imagine one can moderate and control anger lawfully; and if through weakness and frailty one is overtaken by it, it is far better to put it away forcibly than to parley with it; for give anger ever so little way, and it will become master, like the serpent, who easily works in its body wherever it can once introduce its head. You will ask how to put away anger. My child, when you feel its first movements, collect yourself gently and seriously, not hastily or with impetuosity. Sometimes in a law court the officials who enforce quiet make more noise than those they affect to hush; and so, if you are impetuous in restraining your temper, you will throw your heart into worse confusion than before, and, amid the excitement, it will lose all self-control.


St Francis de Sales, Introduction to Devout Life, Part III, Chapter 8

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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