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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:31 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Fr. Ripperger's issue is that the series contains real curses/spells taken from actual witchcraft. If one can disprove it (or prove it?), then there you go. I have never looked into it, so I have no idea.

How are we to determine what is a "real curse/spell" is?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:35 pm 
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1HCaAC wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
I never thought of the "Harry Potter" as more than what is described here:

    They are modern fairy tales with predominant spiritual themes. They describe the struggle between good and evil and the ultimate triumph of the good through the courage and ingenuity of the human spirit, and the power of human love. The survival of the infant Harry against the onslaught of the evil Lord Voldemort that cost the lives of his parents, is repeatedly attributed to the power of his mother's love and her willingness to sacrifice her very life on the altar of this love....

    In each of the stories, Harry and his friends triumph over the evil Lord Voldemort through the spiritual power of goodness implanted in Harry, the strength of the powerful bond of friendship between Harry and the faithful Ron, the ingenuity and the problem-solving ability of the studious Hermione, and the courage of all of them combined.

Source. aish.com. Note: I did not read beyond the intro.

Agree.

How can the triumph of good over evil be of Satan?


Fr. Ripperger notes that satan sometimes tempts us to less goods, especially when we try to begin the habit of mental prayer.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:40 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
1HCaAC wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
I never thought of the "Harry Potter" as more than what is described here:

    They are modern fairy tales with predominant spiritual themes. They describe the struggle between good and evil and the ultimate triumph of the good through the courage and ingenuity of the human spirit, and the power of human love. The survival of the infant Harry against the onslaught of the evil Lord Voldemort that cost the lives of his parents, is repeatedly attributed to the power of his mother's love and her willingness to sacrifice her very life on the altar of this love....

    In each of the stories, Harry and his friends triumph over the evil Lord Voldemort through the spiritual power of goodness implanted in Harry, the strength of the powerful bond of friendship between Harry and the faithful Ron, the ingenuity and the problem-solving ability of the studious Hermione, and the courage of all of them combined.

Source. aish.com. Note: I did not read beyond the intro.

Agree.

How can the triumph of good over evil be of Satan?


Fr. Ripperger notes that satan sometimes tempts us to less goods, especially when we try to begin the habit of mental prayer.

Are we to accept that as the "final" word?

Are not all prayers mental whether verbalized or not legitimate?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:55 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Compare it to "children's lit" of previous generations. I am anti young-adult, and "children lit" anyways, at least as the modern conception goes which just dumbs down reading in order to be more "relevant"

There are far better choices for that age. Rowling is an overrated hack that has assaulted the English tongue.


1. What are, in your opinion, the best English-language books for people 10-20 years old?
2. How has Rowling assaulted the English language?
3. Can poorly written books be judged for that reason to be of the devil?

on 3 I thought it was obvious I was being deliberately hyperbolic.

Tom Sawyer, The Prince and the Pauper, Robinson Crusoe, The Wind in the Willows, Heidi, the Brothers Grimm, Oliver Twist, White Fang, etc

But this is more for the younger end of the range. No reason why those 14-20 are not capable of reading and enjoying the canonical books, and, for lighter reading, regular books. The Canticle of Leibowitz for example

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:18 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Compare it to "children's lit" of previous generations. I am anti young-adult, and "children lit" anyways, at least as the modern conception goes which just dumbs down reading in order to be more "relevant"

There are far better choices for that age. Rowling is an overrated hack that has assaulted the English tongue.


1. What are, in your opinion, the best English-language books for people 10-20 years old?
2. How has Rowling assaulted the English language?
3. Can poorly written books be judged for that reason to be of the devil?

on 3 I thought it was obvious I was being deliberately hyperbolic.

Tom Sawyer, The Prince and the Pauper, Robinson Crusoe, The Wind in the Willows, Heidi, the Brothers Grimm, Oliver Twist, White Fang, etc

But this is more for the younger end of the range. No reason why those 14-20 are not capable of reading and enjoying the canonical books, and, for lighter reading, regular books. The Canticle of Leibowitz for example

I find this uncompeling.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:54 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Compare it to "children's lit" of previous generations. I am anti young-adult, and "children lit" anyways, at least as the modern conception goes which just dumbs down reading in order to be more "relevant"

There are far better choices for that age. Rowling is an overrated hack that has assaulted the English tongue.


1. What are, in your opinion, the best English-language books for people 10-20 years old?
2. How has Rowling assaulted the English language?
3. Can poorly written books be judged for that reason to be of the devil?

on 3 I thought it was obvious I was being deliberately hyperbolic.

Tom Sawyer, The Prince and the Pauper, Robinson Crusoe, The Wind in the Willows, Heidi, the Brothers Grimm, Oliver Twist, White Fang, etc

But this is more for the younger end of the range. No reason why those 14-20 are not capable of reading and enjoying the canonical books, and, for lighter reading, regular books. The Canticle of Leibowitz for example


Thank you for your responses. I'd like to draw your attention to my second question. I've read the seven books and didn't find anything particularly bad as far as literary quality goes. What do the books you listed have that the Harry Potter series lacks?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:15 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Fr. Ripperger's issue is that the series contains real curses/spells taken from actual witchcraft. If one can disprove it (or prove it?), then there you go. I have never looked into it, so I have no idea.


His proof is that a woman burned her house down with the spell in the book. That's not true. As I cited before, she was cooking with oil and toothpaste.


Mmmm...toothpaste.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:28 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
1HCaAC wrote:
... How can the triumph of good over evil be of Satan?

Fr. Ripperger notes that satan sometimes tempts us to less goods, especially when we try to begin the habit of mental prayer.

I'm not contending that the Harry Potter series is good, or bad writing.* I'm just saying that I consider it fantasy, not satanic.

To the idea of "tempts us to less goods" in the area of reading material, one could make a case that the only thing we should be reading is the Bible.

*I remember some teachers in Junior High objecting to the school library subscribing to Hot Rod, and Car and Driver magazines because they were not "good" writing. The librarian said, basically, "I want the boys to read and these are things they will read."

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:34 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Compare it to "children's lit" of previous generations. I am anti young-adult, and "children lit" anyways, at least as the modern conception goes which just dumbs down reading in order to be more "relevant"

There are far better choices for that age. Rowling is an overrated hack that has assaulted the English tongue.


1. What are, in your opinion, the best English-language books for people 10-20 years old?
2. How has Rowling assaulted the English language?
3. Can poorly written books be judged for that reason to be of the devil?

on 3 I thought it was obvious I was being deliberately hyperbolic.

Tom Sawyer, The Prince and the Pauper, Robinson Crusoe, The Wind in the Willows, Heidi, the Brothers Grimm, Oliver Twist, White Fang, etc

But this is more for the younger end of the range. No reason why those 14-20 are not capable of reading and enjoying the canonical books, and, for lighter reading, regular books. The Canticle of Leibowitz for example


Thank you for your responses. I'd like to draw your attention to my second question. I've read the seven books and didn't find anything particularly bad as far as literary quality goes. What do the books you listed have that the Harry Potter series lacks?

I am not a literary analyst. :fyi:

There is a case to be made that the Potter series are not particularly good writing. I find it very plain, basic writing for the most part. Sometimes it is quite dull and plodding. Sometimes it is good, but not terribly often. It is written as a children's book with grown up words. That's the best I can do of a description. Having just picked up one of them and read a few pages I wondered how I managed to read it in the first place. I also picked up White Fang, since I also have a copy of that and immediately noticed a much higher literary quality in the writing. Also, the Narnia books seem much better written.

Each of the Potter books is different, or at least they could be broken into groups. The first two are written poorly, IMO, with the qualities I mention above, the rest have better writing. At least that is the impression I get from a very cursory look at them.

As many books as my little reader reads, the Potter books would represent a small portion of total amount of books read. I don't think it's enough to cause any harm. Now, if all books were like those I would say we have a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:45 am 
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Another issue with the Potter books is that at least one is extremely poorly plotted (Goblet of Fire--main plot line makes exactly zero sense), and one (Order of the Phoenix) was so long and sprawling that it's obvious Rowling just entirely let herself go in the writing and didn't even think about editing the book. However, there are some redeeming qualities in the series. The Via Dolorosa at the end was splendid, for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:52 am 
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gherkin wrote:
The Via Dolorosa at the end was splendid, for example.


Is there a correspondence to all 14 stations? I didn't pick up on anything like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:55 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
gherkin wrote:
The Via Dolorosa at the end was splendid, for example.


Is there a correspondence to all 14 stations? I didn't pick up on anything like that.

No.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:24 am 
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A Canticle for Leibowitz is light reading? :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:29 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Compare it to "children's lit" of previous generations. I am anti young-adult, and "children lit" anyways, at least as the modern conception goes which just dumbs down reading in order to be more "relevant"

There are far better choices for that age. Rowling is an overrated hack that has assaulted the English tongue.


1. What are, in your opinion, the best English-language books for people 10-20 years old?
2. How has Rowling assaulted the English language?
3. Can poorly written books be judged for that reason to be of the devil?

on 3 I thought it was obvious I was being deliberately hyperbolic.

Tom Sawyer, The Prince and the Pauper, Robinson Crusoe, The Wind in the Willows, Heidi, the Brothers Grimm, Oliver Twist, White Fang, etc

But this is more for the younger end of the range. No reason why those 14-20 are not capable of reading and enjoying the canonical books, and, for lighter reading, regular books. The Canticle of Leibowitz for example


Thank you for your responses. I'd like to draw your attention to my second question. I've read the seven books and didn't find anything particularly bad as far as literary quality goes. What do the books you listed have that the Harry Potter series lacks?

I am not a literary analyst. :fyi:

There is a case to be made that the Potter series are not particularly good writing. I find it very plain, basic writing for the most part. Sometimes it is quite dull and plodding. Sometimes it is good, but not terribly often. It is written as a children's book with grown up words. That's the best I can do of a description. Having just picked up one of them and read a few pages I wondered how I managed to read it in the first place. I also picked up White Fang, since I also have a copy of that and immediately noticed a much higher literary quality in the writing. Also, the Narnia books seem much better written.

Each of the Potter books is different, or at least they could be broken into groups. The first two are written poorly, IMO, with the qualities I mention above, the rest have better writing. At least that is the impression I get from a very cursory look at them.

As many books as my little reader reads, the Potter books would represent a small portion of total amount of books read. I don't think it's enough to cause any harm. Now, if all books were like those I would say we have a problem.


I agree. As I said, I found it "meh", it represented not the phenomenon it later became, in its fullness, but merely another blip in the sort of stuff I read by the metric ton. Some good, some great, some "meh" to the point I never follow up on them. Such was DUNE. Such was Harry.

Tolkien, when I started reading the trilogy, was decidedly (understatement) non-meh. To the oft remarked extent that I read it in reverse order, that being the only way I could get it at the time. But reviews from the time and since, can be found judging Tolkien as pedestrian, plodding, and puerile. Edmund Wilson did it, early on. He found James Branch Cabell's Poictesme series the real thing in imaginary worlds. And of soaring literary quality, too. I've sampled both. Wilson was wrong.

Rawlings wrote a very financially successful fantasy series. I've tasted both it and Tolkien. Like Cabell, I found Potter failed to engage. I passed on to other things. But, pace Michael O'Brien, It's not satanic. It's "meh" writing. Most writing is, in some sense or another.

I must now go and by some decidedly non-meh writings. The latest/last Honor book is out. No time for Harry.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:30 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
A Canticle for Leibowitz is light reading? :shock:


May I borrow your expression?

:shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:39 am 
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TreeBeard wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
1HCaAC wrote:
... How can the triumph of good over evil be of Satan?

Fr. Ripperger notes that satan sometimes tempts us to less goods, especially when we try to begin the habit of mental prayer.

I'm not contending that the Harry Potter series is good, or bad writing.* I'm just saying that I consider it fantasy, not satanic.

To the idea of "tempts us to less goods" in the area of reading material, one could make a case that the only thing we should be reading is the Bible.

*I remember some teachers in Junior High objecting to the school library subscribing to Hot Rod, and Car and Driver magazines because they were not "good" writing. The librarian said, basically, "I want the boys to read and these are things they will read."



I agree with TreeBeard.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:50 am 
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GKC wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
A Canticle for Leibowitz is light reading? :shock:


May I borrow your expression?

:shock:

In style, not theme perhaps

All I can say to Jack3, if you don't see the inferior literary quality, is to read some of the books on the English canon, and then revisit.

Taste, contrary to cliche, is closely linked with truth (da nobis recta sapere we pray), but as a participation in reason it is not demonstrable syllogistically but by habituation.

Consider a well balance man will appreciate Mozart, Bach, etc, while also able to enjoy folk music (in its proper sense). One who only is habituated to folk, like a man who only knows one dish, is impoverished. And he that is habituated to discordant, atonal or disordered music, is disordered in his very soul. Hence music is very much a moral thing, it shapes our mores.

And so it is with books. Potter is only at best the folk, and there even it is of the more vapid kind, like early Beatles or a McDonald's cheeseburger, whereas say The Outsiders is more like a Ricky Scaggs, or an In N' Out burger, and the canon varies from homecooked splendor, to filet mignon. Sure you can be an Archie Bunker, put ketchup on everything, but it would be objectively wrong

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:08 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
GKC wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
A Canticle for Leibowitz is light reading? :shock:


May I borrow your expression?

:shock:

In style, not theme perhaps

All I can say to Jack3, if you don't see the inferior literary quality, is to read some of the books on the English canon, and then revisit.

Taste, contrary to cliche, is closely linked with truth (da nobis recta sapere we pray), but as a participation in reason it is not demonstrable syllogistically but by habituation.

Consider a well balance man will appreciate Mozart, Bach, etc, while also able to enjoy folk music (in its proper sense). One who only is habituated to folk, like a man who only knows one dish, is impoverished. And he that is habituated to discordant, atonal or disordered music, is disordered in his very soul. Hence music is very much a moral thing, it shapes our mores.

And so it is with books. Potter is only at best the folk, and there even it is of the more vapid kind, like early Beatles or a McDonald's cheeseburger, whereas say The Outsiders is more like a Ricky Scaggs, or an In N' Out burger, and the canon varies from homecooked splendor, to filet mignon. Sure you can be an Archie Bunker, put ketchup on everything, but it would be objectively wrong


I seem to be a well balanced man, by this standard.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:44 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:

All I can say to Jack3, if you don't see the inferior literary quality, is to read some of the books on the English canon, and then revisit.


I don't know what canon you are referring to. I've read three of the books you listed and I sincerely don't find Harry Potter to be inferior to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Harry Potter of the Devil?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:12 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:

All I can say to Jack3, if you don't see the inferior literary quality, is to read some of the books on the English canon, and then revisit.


I don't know what canon you are referring to. I've read three of the books you listed and I sincerely don't find Harry Potter to be inferior to them.

The canon is the generally accepted body of genuinely great work. You used to be able to get a good sense of it by seeking out lists of "great books" or getting ahold of series of volumes of great books. We had a big collection of junior great books on the shelf when I was growing up, divided, IIRC, by age ranges. Nowadays, of course, you can't trust any such talk, but go back and look a lists/volumes from the 50's and you'll get a decent idea of what PED is talking about.

The trouble with trying to discuss great literature is that there's not a formula. It's hard to be explicit. CS Lewis talks about this in the Abolition of Man--one of the main reasons why so many alleged teachers of literature turn into teachers of bad philosophy is that teaching literature is very hard.

But take a simple analogy. When I try to watch football (I mean, of course, American football--I would never watch soccer) I basically see a mess. I can't tell what's going on. It's just guys moving around and bumping into each other. I have to wait for the announcers to explain it all to me. Even when they do a little stop action thing and draw arrows and such, I'm still usually a bit confused. This is because I rarely watch football, have never played it, have very minimal interest in it, and generally just don't have any real attunement to it. I couldn't even tell the difference between a good team and a bad one by watching them play, if not for the objective facts of whether their plays tend to lead to yardage gains (or, if we're talking about defense, yardage stops or takeaways).

How would I become attuned to football? Well, watching it, studying it, maybe even trying to play it a bit. And talking to and learning from experts on football.

It's kind of like that with literature.

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