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 Post subject: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:30 pm 
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So I wasn't sure where else to post this, but I bet some of you have some really good insights on self-defense issues. It's that time of year where we're buying gifts for our loved ones, and part of that for me this year was thinking (again) about getting some means of self-protection for myself and my family. For the record, I'm actually a little more concerned about protecting myself or kids from large dogs that freely roam around here than I am of someone breaking in, but of course that can happen, too.

The obvious and first thought is a firearm of some sort. If I go that route, my initial idea is something very simple--maybe a hammerless revolver with a good holster. Both my wife and I would take a few classes and some time at the range. I'd have lots of questions about raising your kids to respect guns as neither my wife nor I grew up around them but know that, raised properly, you don't need to really worry about your kids getting into them. My practical concerns are things like the amount of training involved and the fact that guns, by nature, are extremely deady--part of the point, I know, but I wonder if the force isn't sometimes a bit excessive and maybe if prudence might say something with a little less power might be more appropriate. For example, bullets go through walls very easily! I can imagine a gun being as much a danger to my family as an intruder depending the orientation of the fight. Or if a dog is running up on us, again depending on the angle, I wouldn't want my kids in the line of fire, and how hard is it to hit a moving target? Then there are the legal questions and draw time, etc. So, again, the gun is the obvious choice, but what sort of prudential concerns out to be considered?

My next thought is a blade of some sort, be it something like a machete or even an inexpensive short sword. Most non-wall hangers are north of $250, but I've found a few highly rated and reviewed options for $150 and even less. Some of my concerns here might be more obvious. First, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight! But beyond that, if you approach an intruder with a blade even if they are only armed with say a club of some sort (if at all), blades, like guns, are highly lethal (even if requiring you to be closer). To cut is, essentially, to intend to kill, be it man or animal. If that's necessary, that's fine, even if regrettable. But it's very . . . how shall we say . . . personal. I do think there is something especially intimidating about someone coming at you with a very large knife that is just especially scary. I mean, the jokes about the crazy guy with the sword write themselves! Such a blade would have to be long enough to be effective but short enough to use indoors. I could see it working against one or two animals, but not a pack. Maybe less training involved. There are also potentially legal issues involved since the force here is also highly lethal.

Third is some sort of club. There's the classic baseball bat, of course, or you could up the ante to a mace of some kind. Those types of weapons can be lethal, of course, but you can also provide a lot stopping power with a well placed shot to the limbs. Heck, even getting smashed really hard in the upper arm is enough to send a lot of people or animals running, to say nothing of if you crush a joint. But by this point, you're putting yourself in a lot more danger than the other options. Someone can take the club and club you. Also, whereas I could do a lot of damage with one, I'm not sure my wife would have much use for that kind of thing.

So . . . we have some people here who know a thing or two about taking care of and defending themselves and their families. What are your thoughts and what sorts of things ought I be considering?

Much obliged, and Merry Christmas!!! :)

(Sorry if the topic is a bit morbid for this time of year ;))

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:32 pm 
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Years ago, I learned how difficult it is to hit a moving target and how difficult it is to hit a stationary target while I was moving. While I was in the military I took an executive protection course (2 weeks, I think.) A memorable part of it was the pistol range. We were presented with live ammunition and both scenarios noted above. In both cases, everybody in the class missed the targets most of the time.

Concerning the "potentially legal issues" of using a blade, in my state a "firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club" etc. are all considered equals as a "weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm."

Is your wife on-board with your desire to have a gun or blade in the house?

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Die Hard is a Christmas movie, so I'd say the question is fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:23 pm 
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I agree with TreeBeard about a blade--it's deadly force. If you're going to use deadly force, use a gun.

If you're principally concerned about dogs, I'd suggest maybe looking into good bear spray or suchlike.

If you do go with a gun, and you're thinking of it as a gun to have with you out in the world, then look into a compact (but not subcompact) autoloader like a Smith and Wesson M&P 2.0 in 9mm. Revolvers are neat, but they're actually very hard to shoot well. Very long, pretty heavy triggers. Also, few cartridges. Very hard to reload quickly, especially under stress, and even more especially if you've been injured. A more or less duty-sized modern pistol like the M&P compact is relatively easy to carry concealed, has a great deal of firepower, is easy to reload, is comparatively easy to shoot well, and is chambered in an affordable and effective cartridge. I haven't actually watched this video, but this guy usually does a good job: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmUPBMA7v_U

It's fairly hard to shoot a pistol well. It takes practice. As you say, it also takes thought: you need to visualize what you'd do in such-and-such a situation, especially in a home defense case. Where would your kids and wife be likely to be? How do you avoid hitting them? There are lots of solutions: for example, take a knee to change the angle of the shot. Etc. But if you get a gun you need to work on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:08 pm 
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I...agree with gherkin. (There, I said it.). TJ, your idea of a DAO (double-action only) revolver all but guarantees that, when the time comes for you to use it for self-defense, you will go in with two strikes against you, especially if you are not well-accustomed to firing it.

I highly recommend that you and your wife visit gun stores on several occasions BEFORE you buy. IIRC, you're in the Atlanta area. There are beaucoup firearms specialty stores all over the place there. If possible, visit on a weekday, when business is lighter and the staff can devote more time to your many questions. Trust me, they are glad to answer your questions and will respect you for wanting to become knowledgeable. Find out if anyone is offering a beginner's firearm class. This will not qualify you for concealed-carry, but it WILL teach you a great deal.

Also, just about any gun range rents firearms. This is your opportunity to "test drive" before you buy. Try a variety: single-action and double-action revolvers, as well as semi-automatics, in a variety of calibers. I recommend 9 and 10mm, and .45, .40. and .380 calibers.

Also, if you are looking for home defense, and you have concerns about aim, you might consider a smaller-gauge shotgun with a short (18-in.) barrel. Just don't make the mistake my ex did and load it with slugs. Thank God he learned the error of that decision by a person more knowledgeable than he regarding home defense and not the hard way. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
I...agree with gherkin. (There, I said it.). TJ, your idea of a DAO (double-action only) revolver all but guarantees that, when the time comes for you to use it for self-defense, you will go in with two strikes against you, especially if you are not well-accustomed to firing it.

I highly recommend that you and your wife visit gun stores on several occasions BEFORE you buy. IIRC, you're in the Atlanta area. There are beaucoup firearms specialty stores all over the place there. If possible, visit on a weekday, when business is lighter and the staff can devote more time to your many questions. Trust me, they are glad to answer your questions and will respect you for wanting to become knowledgeable. Find out if anyone is offering a beginner's firearm class. This will not qualify you for concealed-carry, but it WILL teach you a great deal.

Also, just about any gun range rents firearms. This is your opportunity to "test drive" before you buy. Try a variety: single-action and double-action revolvers, as well as semi-automatics, in a variety of calibers. I recommend 9 and 10mm, and .45, .40. and .380 calibers.

If you are looking for home defense, and you have concerns about aim, you might consider a smaller-gauge shotgun with a short (18-in.) barrel. Just don't make the mistake my ex did and load it with slugs. Thank God he learned the error of that decision by a person more knowledgeable than he regarding home defense and not the hard way. :shock:


One more thing, regarding educating your children on firearms safety. The best program on that subject is the NRA's Eddie Eagle program. https://eddieeagle.nra.org

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:28 pm 
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Thanks for the responses so far. I'll definitely have to spend quite a few hours with the wife at the range before committing to having one in the house, regardless of the type (revolver, compact, shotgun, etc.). I have no doubt, again, that a gun is best for self-defense but only if you can actually use it. I guess that's the best way to put it. If you can't aim and shoot appropriately, not only is it not helpful, but given the power of bullets, it's also potentially dangerous to others. And the moving target thing, especially if dealing with animals, really weighs heavily on me. I think in addition to some education at the store, some actual experience firing will be invaluable here.

As far as my wife, she's very much on board with having something. She's not even opposed to having multiple options--maybe a gun, a blade, and some spray of some sort. She, like me, just wants to make sure that the decision we make is a wise one. So I'll update when she and I get a chance to actually handle a few different weapons and see how we feel and what kind of education/experience we feel we can legitimately commit to.

As an aside, MT, I'm not in Atlanta anymore. I was for a while, but now I'm in Arkansas. They actually have some very, very, very lax knife laws, so there's that. I'm not sure about the laws pertaining to firearms and concealed carry. That's part of what we'd be looking into.

Thanks again for thoughts so far. Definitely some good advice here for us to keep in mind!

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:47 pm 
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Bear spray.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:00 am 
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I bought the wife a hammerless .380 revolver....

It's a good knockdown round and the gun is crazy easy to shoot. I knew there was no way she could use my .45 auto in a pressure situation, hence its purchase. However, the safety is not traditional (isn't easy to engage or disengage, so the gun is always "hot"). Therefore, it needs to be kept far away from little hands. The round isn't likely to go through four walls if you fire it indoors and miss the the target (although it will go through a couple).

That being said, my 2nd son slept with a loaded shotgun under his bed (cable safety engaged) and all our other kids knew it (he was in his trap shooting club at school). They have all fired guns, greatly respect them and would never, I mean, never, pull any gun out and play with it. Safety engaged or not....

So if your family is old enough and respects weapons then you're fine....

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Some thoughts.

1. A gun. It is indeed the equalizer. Other weapons rely upon body strength and being very close .. and you have to assume your potential killer has a gun. And, even if you miss, which is likely, the noise and light (at night) will probably be a deterrent equal to the round being flung somewhere near the target.

2. Kids. When I had kids in the house, I had no guns. Cause kids, who sometimes have the functioning IQ of a mouse on speed. And because rounds will penetrate wallboard and you probably won't know exactly where your kids are.

3. Are you a killer? You need to decide whether you are before going the gun, or other weapon route. Because that is what we are discussing.

4. A shotgun is a pure self defense weapon, but can be limited in rounds and can be difficult to operate. A pistol is much easier to operate and, with reloading clips, can provide a bunch of rounds. I'd pick the shotgun for home defense. And have a pistol standing by. Which I do.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:24 pm 
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I'd start with a wireless security system that can be linked to local police and fire for about $15/per month. Simply Safe looks good. Then if you want a weapon, you can choose one.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:19 pm 
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Check out the status of your local police response to licensed, connected alarm systems. In my town it is non-existent. The last person I know who was burglarized had a 3 1/2 hour response. He was told that the city has only 6 cops assigned to alarm response and all they do is create paperwork.

OTOH, I am considering a private, armed response. Another friend has had good luck. But it costs. Like many things that the government provides, you can have it if you can pay for it yourself on the private market.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:18 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
The right kind of dog is the best.


:clap:

Excellent point.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:31 pm 
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Along with a larger dog, best home defense is a home defense shotgun.

See: https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2018 ... -shotguns/

Why: "The primary advantage of using a shotgun for self-defense is that it fires multiple projectiles every time you pull the trigger. That’s something no other gun can do – at least not effectively. The reason that’s an advantage is not because the pellets spread out so that you don’t have to aim. This issue was addressed pretty well by Darryl Bolke in his article on shotgun myths that he wrote for our blog a couple of weeks ago. At distances inside a home, buckshot is only going to spread a few inches. But because that pattern stays tight, the cumulative effect that cluster of pellets has on the target is devastating."

- https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why- ... e-defense/

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:13 pm 
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I think a small shotgun would be the best option as far as firearms go, but to an earlier point, I'd want to spend quite a bit of time at a range before I get into something like that (again, having never owned a gun and having only fired one twice--my wife never). I think a multi-agent spray would be a great start for animals. I was also thinking a tazer would be an interesting option for home defense (plus an alarm system!). It seems I can get a good one for around $300 or $400.

A friend of mine today told me that his father kept a loaded shotgun in the house that housed multiple cartridges. The first was salt rock. The second was bird shot. The third, buck shot. The last slugs. That seems a pretty good way to go about escalation . . .

As far as highlander's pointed third question, the honest answer is that I don't know. I've never been in that situation before. I can tell you what I genuinely believe, which is that if I felt my family was being threatened, in the moment I don't think it would be a question at all. I know people talk big with things like that and I'm told by more than a few that it's just different in real life. But having never experienced it in real life, I can only go with what I do think would be my approach. With that said, if there's a non-lethal option, I'd much prefer it as much as for the after effect as anything else. But the very thought of the after effect of the thought, "If I'd only been willing to pull the trigger/swing the blade, my wife and kids would be alive . . ." as I sit here on the couch watching my wife feed my son, that's just far too horrible to contemplate. It feels, right here and now, far less horrible (though horrible still) to kill someone if it absolutely came to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:15 am 
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A shotgun is lethal force whatever it's loaded with. As Massad Ayoob puts it, you're legal to use lethal force if and only if you reasonably believe yourself (or another who falls under your mantle of protection) to be in imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm. Now, if you find yourself in such a situation, rock salt and birdshot are very seriously not good solutions.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:33 am 
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Amen, my green brother. Escalation in such a situation is also a bad choice. Cause while you are escalating, you potential killer may immediately try to kill you.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:31 am 
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https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-pit-bull ... ce-reports

I have a friend who had to shoot a vicious dog a few years ago. :( Nice suburban neighborhood. Neighbor's dog.

Dogs can be a problem. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Home/Self-defense?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:53 am 
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In such cases, the owner of the vicious dog is often unable to see the merit of the shooter defending himself.

I habitually walk past a house which has a wall that backs onto a slope. A dog there, over time, kept expanding its territory. First, it was just the yard. Then it was the top of the fence. Then, it would jump the wall and claim a couple of yards past the wall. Then it began claiming the ground up to the walking path. By claim, I mean aggressive, teeth baring, frantic barking.

I finally reported the phenomenon to the owner. I told him that when the dog had expanded its territory to include challenging me on the public path, I would defend myself using whatever means were necessary. I also told him that I did not consider the dog to be at fault (the owner could figure out what I was saying), but that the dog was doing what dogs do. The owner was somewhat upset, but within two weeks he added two courses of cinder block to his wall and the dog could no longer make it over. Win-win.

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