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 Post subject: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:07 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Is it a good book?
If not, which is a good book that deals with these themes?

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:29 pm 
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Ed Feser recommends it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:48 pm 
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Is the style so polemic that it's unappealing to atheist or semi-atheist readers?

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:52 pm 
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I've not read it, but I suspect that may be the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:06 pm 
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Are you aware of non-rude books that deal with these themes?

That religious faith is an enemy of peace, science and progress, and that faith is what makes good people do bad things?

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:34 am 
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The thing is, the so-called ‘rudeness’ of Feser and Hart is absolutely called for. They reply in kind to the new atheists. I recommend reading Hart’s review of Richard Dawkins’ last book. See here.

Christopher Hitchens, who passed away almost nine years ago, and whose brother is Christian, was notoriously ‘rude.’ It was completely intentional. In fact, in older times it was quite normal among academics.

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:59 am 
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I know that the new atheists are rude too. But that doesn't change the fact that such things can be unappealing to atheists.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:21 am 
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I read it and don't remember anything much about it. Try something like Scruton's Our Church, maybe. I haven't read it, actually, but I'm sure it'll be smart and confusing and breezy and very interesting. Scruton was not a real believer, and of course he's not actually defending the Church, but rather the church of England, and he's not defending it in the way we might like, but rather as the source of English culture, but that might actually be a much more accessible starting point for an atheist than a full defense of theism or whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:55 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
I know that the new atheists are rude too. But that doesn't change the fact that such things can be unappealing to atheists.


Why do you even care about what is appealing to atheists? In the universe of things that I care about 'sensitivity about the feelings of atheists' is not even in the top 10 million.

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:06 pm 
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Perhaps he wants to give a book to an atheist in order to persuade him not to be one.

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:14 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Perhaps he wants to give a book to an atheist in order to persuade him not to be one.


Which is stupid, to put it bluntly, every atheist in the world is given 50 books a year which go on a shelf to be forever unread, assuming they aren't simply thrown away. Don't just give people books, that accomplishes nothing. Talk to them. How many issues of The Watchtower have you had shoved into your hand that never get read?

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:32 pm 
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None. They must avoid me.

If one converses with an atheist, one might reach the point where a book could be helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:36 pm 
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The trick with the Watchtower is to not take it. They're trained to hold it to your chest, which will naturally prompt people to take it from them. When you don't take it, they don't know what to do. You can see the confusion in their eyes. Not that I enjoy toying with JW's. That's not what I mean. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:39 pm 
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How do they find you all the way out in the country? Or does this happen on campus?

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:59 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
None. They must avoid me.

If one converses with an atheist, one might reach the point where a book could be helpful.


It is better to read the book yourself and use it as a sourcebook for conversation than to just give someone a book. Besides the fact that no one's mind is ever changed by reading one book, the problem with giving someone a book is that stubborn people have a way of reading what they want into what they read and this only makes the problem worse. Granted, people can just as easily misconstrue your meaning in a conversation also, but at least then you can immediately make a correction 'no that's not what I meant'

Unless the person you're talking to is an intellectual, such as a philosopher or theologian, so that you can both read the same book at the same time and discuss what you read, giving people books is usually counterproductive.

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:23 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
How do they find you all the way out in the country? Or does this happen on campus?

Before we moved out here, we lived across the street from a JW family. Very nice people! They themselves never came over to try to evangelize us, but there were JW's going by our house all the time. The Kingdom Hall itself was probably less than a mile away.

Haven't seen a JW or a Mormon out here yet, but the Babdists in town invite us to church all the time. Then they give that...you know, that sort of pitying "oh, you're one of those people" look... when we tell them where we already go. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:07 pm 
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My friend asked for books. He is an atheist and is enthusiastic about social justice and is a better than the standard new atheist and asked me for books about Christianity and eventually Christian theology.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Hart, Atheist Delusions?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:07 pm 
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That is great Jack3! I will say some prayers for him. And you too!


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