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 Post subject: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:12 am 
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My gosh, some of these people are obnoxious.

I have gotten into it with Born Agains many times, and it bore no fruit. They are not interested in the first 1,500 years of Church history after Christ's death, and I do not think they really know who gave them the Bible. I think - they think, that it just appeared on a misty mountain top. Catholics had everything to do with the formation of the Bible, but I guess it doesn't matter.

I've been called a Virgin Mary worshipper. Funny- - - they were privy to information I myself was not. I've never worshipped the Virgin Mother, and I've never met a Catholic who did. True, I only converted 2.5 years ago so I'll give it time...

Anyhow, the point here is that I officially resign from speaking with Born Agains when it comes to matters of faith. It doesn't go anywhere and it only serves to frustrate me. I can talk to Mormons easier than I can the disciples of John Hagee and Jan Crouch...or that plastic goofball Joel Osteen.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:16 am 
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well it makes it kinda difficult when they don't even acknowlege the truth of when they were "born again" 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:41 pm 
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I have to confess to sometimes playing mind games with them. I will share my love for the Lord, etc. and then eventually they will ask me what church I go to. When I tell them, their jaw just drops, and it usually takes a while for them to recover enough to try and challenge me. Some of the times when they ask questions, I give them an answer or two, and when it starts to make sense to them, they stop asking questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:12 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
well it makes it kinda difficult when they don't even acknowlege the truth of when they were "born again" 8-)

That was my first thought. If you really want to wind those guys up, when they ask, "Have you been born again?", all it takes is to say, "Yes, when I was baptised." That either confuses them or infuriates them.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:34 pm 
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even better if you say i was born again the biblical way... when i was baptized 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Desert,

Oh yes, that will get them going. They missed the water and spirit part of the Gospels.

They speak of the "Born again" experience as a one time deal. It's my understanding that conversion is a lifelong process. That's point one. Point two is that they speak of baptism as passé and not much required. They have thrown out extremely fundamental things. You'd think that Jesus being baptized would cause them to follow suit. Nope. They have their altar-calls, you come forward and accept Jesus into your heart. Ok, I get that. But what about everything else?

Also, no acceptance of recent miracles. I've had them tell me that Fatima was a deception of Lucifer. I guess God can only reveal Himself through the Bible, and only up until the Resurrection. Past that, it's Heavenly silence until the Second Coming.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:44 pm 
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My issue with born-agains is their insistence that I agree with them. They spout a verse from the Bible and insist that that quotation resolves all issues and all questions. Then, often frustrated, they ask why I can't see that what they have said is compelling.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:12 pm 
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Benedict40 wrote:
Desert,

Oh yes, that will get them going. They missed the water and spirit part of the Gospels.

They speak of the "Born again" experience as a one time deal. It's my understanding that conversion is a lifelong process. That's point one. Point two is that they speak of baptism as passé and not much required. They have thrown out extremely fundamental things. You'd think that Jesus being baptized would cause them to follow suit. Nope. They have their altar-calls, you come forward and accept Jesus into your heart. Ok, I get that. But what about everything else?


An interesting consequence of them denying the sacrament of baptism is that they end up sacramentalizing conversion instead. They insist on a single moment in time (you must know the minute and the hour) where you accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior, and there are conditions of form and matter, e.g., you must recite a variation of the sinner's prayer, you have to cry, you have to tell your mom (yes, someone said this, but I'm not sure what they meant), etc. Whereas Catholics can look back to the time of their baptism and know that, the basic conditions of validity being met, that they were validly baptized and received the baptismal character. Whereas with the Evangelical pseudo-sacrament, there is always a lingering doubt over whether you really meant it, whether you prayed hard enough, whether you cried enough tears, and if someone falls away later, then obviously they never really had any kind of Christian life the whole time they and everyone else thought they were a Christian.


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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:28 pm 
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Pelagius wrote:
An interesting consequence of them denying the sacrament of baptism is that they end up sacramentalizing conversion instead.

That is very well put! I’ll have to remember that. :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:45 am 
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Benedict40 wrote:
Also, no acceptance of recent miracles. I've had them tell me that Fatima was a deception of Lucifer. I guess God can only reveal Himself through the Bible, and only up until the Resurrection. Past that, it's Heavenly silence until the Second Coming.


:scratch:

I've never met a born again Christian who didn't believe in current miracles. It's Catholic miracles they take issue with.

Considering I grew up amongst "born again's" (pentecostal variety) and most of my family still fit that descriptive, this claim is rather surprising to me. They would all argue quite loudly that they do believe in miracles - then they'd give you examples of miracles they've witnessed.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:03 am 
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Hi Jayne,

Good point! Yes, it is Catholic miracles....or anything Catholic for that matter that they reject.

Did these Pentecostals also babble gibberish and call it "tongues"?

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:05 am 
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Jayne wrote:
I've never met a born again Christian who didn't believe in current miracles.

They exist--some varieties of Baptists, IIRC.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:16 am 
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Jayne wrote:
Benedict40 wrote:
Also, no acceptance of recent miracles. I've had them tell me that Fatima was a deception of Lucifer. I guess God can only reveal Himself through the Bible, and only up until the Resurrection. Past that, it's Heavenly silence until the Second Coming.


:scratch:

I've never met a born again Christian who didn't believe in current miracles. It's Catholic miracles they take issue with.



:iws

A lot of the Protestant televangelist shows, especially of the so called "Prosperity Gospel" variety, are big on current miracles.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:53 am 
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anawim wrote:
I have to confess to sometimes playing mind games with them. I will share my love for the Lord, etc. and then eventually they will ask me what church I go to. When I tell them, their jaw just drops, and it usually takes a while for them to recover enough to try and challenge me. Some of the times when they ask questions, I give them an answer or two, and when it starts to make sense to them, they stop asking questions.



I wonder at times if the "What church do you go to" is a feeling out question with some Born Again Christians.
I rarely ever have a Catholic ask me that. But I'll have Evangelicals ask me that almost any time I get into a discussions with them about a social issue (where the fact that I'm a Christian comes to the fore) or a theological issue.... and we find ourselves in agreement.

I attended a Catholic Church that used to be called "Holy Innocents" and that name would kind of throw some off and they'd further inquire along the lines of "what kind of church is that?".

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Desertfalcon wrote:
Pelagius wrote:
An interesting consequence of them denying the sacrament of baptism is that they end up sacramentalizing conversion instead.

That is very well put! I’ll have to remember that. :thumbsup:

Ditto!

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:35 pm 
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Benedict40 wrote:
Hi Jayne,

Good point! Yes, it is Catholic miracles....or anything Catholic for that matter that they reject.

Did these Pentecostals also babble gibberish and call it "tongues"?


Glossolalia.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:12 pm 
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Gesundheit.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:23 pm 
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Thank You!

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:45 pm 
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Benedict40 wrote:
Hi Jayne,

Good point! Yes, it is Catholic miracles....or anything Catholic for that matter that they reject.

Did these Pentecostals also babble gibberish and call it "tongues"?


Yes, however I am very hesitant to call it gibberish. I think its importance is hugely blown out of proportion with Pentecostals but that alone doesn't make it false.

I've been to charismatic Catholic meetings (never a mass) where they also spoke in tongues. It sounded the same but there was one big difference. It was only ever one person at a time (sometimes only once a meeting) and there was always a translation afterwards from someone else.

I suppose that's two things.

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 Post subject: Re: Born Again Christians
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:05 pm 
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Speed Racer wrote:
Jayne wrote:
Benedict40 wrote:
Also, no acceptance of recent miracles. I've had them tell me that Fatima was a deception of Lucifer. I guess God can only reveal Himself through the Bible, and only up until the Resurrection. Past that, it's Heavenly silence until the Second Coming.


:scratch:

I've never met a born again Christian who didn't believe in current miracles. It's Catholic miracles they take issue with.



:iws

A lot of the Protestant televangelist shows, especially of the so called "Prosperity Gospel" variety, are big on current miracles.



Baptists are nothing if not evangelical, and Baptists strongly disbelieve in modern miracles, as well as rejecting charismatism.

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