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 Post subject: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:37 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Can I quote from a book by Michael D. O'Brien "The Apocalypse...Warning, Hope, and Consolation"
without breaking any rules? The quote is seven lines.


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:15 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Why not, you big teaser?

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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:03 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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St. Irenaeus of Lyons wrote:
Why not, you big teaser?


:) I may sound like a teaser, but in many ways I am unsure of myself. Now I will quote what I want to...thanks for your encouragement!

From the insightful book by Michael D. O'Brien "The Apocalypse...Warning, Hope, & Consolation"

page 67 "In this land we have overwhelmingly neglected the transcendent, with all the demands of its moral absolutes, and instead have more and more projected the false notion that serving the poor and laboring for justice is, in and of itself, the Gospels. It goes without saying that sacrifice and energy must be turned toward serving the poor and working for justice, but this must not be done at the expense of truth. Such service is an essential part of the new evangelization, yet it can never be the whole of it."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. I don't understand about 3/4 of what I read here on the forum (I try to) because I have no degrees in theology, philosophy, etc.,. I do think I understand what I need to understand. :)


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:10 pm 
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As teachers used to say in public school, it's easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:35 pm 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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:)


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:37 pm 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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I will comment on the quote I chose.

I understood Michael D. O'Brien to make the point that there is a lot of volunteers in many parishes who visit people at nursing homes. help at soup kitchens, become ccd teachers, Eucharistic ministers, and so on.

However, a large number of Catholics do not accept all the moral teachings, (no contraception or abortion).... or dogmas of faith (the Eucharist being the Real Presence, etc.)

So, just like it is said that faith without works is not enough, isn't it so that works without faith is not enough?

Is it poor catechesis? Not enough prayer? or just living in this culture? Or perhaps all three that brings this about?


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:25 am 
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The problem with not accepting the moral teachings can be attributed to many causes. How much you believe each cause had an effect is a matter of opinion. You can blame causes from direct evil intervention, the misuse of Vatican II, the after effects of WWII, the Greatest and Boomer generations, all the way down to the USSR infiltrating the Church with homosexual priests depending on how much you like conspiracy theories.

I believe it boils down to the age old problem of not teaching the children. We (laity and clergy) not passing down what should have been passed. I am just glad I was of the generation that started to realize what the previous generations were letting go and I hope that I can help the younger ones recover what was lost.

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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:17 pm 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Thank you for your input Will.

Your last paragraph says it all....parents need to be the primary teachers and examples to their children.

And, it is never too late to be of help to our grown children....love and prayer helps much.


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
I will comment on the quote I chose.

I understood Michael D. O'Brien to make the point that there is a lot of volunteers in many parishes who visit people at nursing homes. help at soup kitchens, become ccd teachers, Eucharistic ministers, and so on.

However, a large number of Catholics do not accept all the moral teachings, (no contraception or abortion).... or dogmas of faith (the Eucharist being the Real Presence, etc.)

So, just like it is said that faith without works is not enough, isn't it so that works without faith is not enough?

Is it poor catechesis? Not enough prayer? or just living in this culture? Or perhaps all three that brings this about?
Dorothy, you suggest that "works without faith is not enough", and then you suggest that what you mean by "faith" is dogmatic teachings such as "the Eucharist being the Real Presense". I think it would be a very narrow attitude to believe that anyone who doesn't believe in the Real Presense of the Eucharist doesn't have faith. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "faith", in the context of "faith without works is not enough". I hope you don't think that the only people who have "faith" are the people who believe exactly what you believe.

What motivates people to do good works if not faith?


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:11 pm 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Denise Dee wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
I will comment on the quote I chose.

I understood Michael D. O'Brien to make the point that there is a lot of volunteers in many parishes who visit people at nursing homes. help at soup kitchens, become ccd teachers, Eucharistic ministers, and so on.

However, a large number of Catholics do not accept all the moral teachings, (no contraception or abortion).... or dogmas of faith (the Eucharist being the Real Presence, etc.)

So, just like it is said that faith without works is not enough, isn't it so that works without faith is not enough?

Is it poor catechesis? Not enough prayer? or just living in this culture? Or perhaps all three that brings this about?
Dorothy, you suggest that "works without faith is not enough", and then you suggest that what you mean by "faith" is dogmatic teachings such as "the Eucharist being the Real Presense". I think it would be a very narrow attitude to believe that anyone who doesn't believe in the Real Presense of the Eucharist doesn't have faith. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "faith", in the context of "faith without works is not enough". I hope you don't think that the only people who have "faith" are the people who believe exactly what you believe.

What motivates people to do good works if not faith?


Denise, I was making the point to Catholics who go to Mass every Sunday and believe that they can obey what they want to obey and disregard the moral teachings of the Church (contraception and abortion, among others) and think that it is okay.

I cannot judge others who are Christians that do not believe in the Real Presence. I have heard Catholics tell me that they do not take seriously the teaching of the Real Presence at Mass. And, then I hear the statistics that come back from questionnaires that say there is a large amount of Catholics who do not believe that.

A lack of obedience, prayerfulness, and adherence to all the teachings among some clergy and congregation is what got us in this mess we are in now.

It will be worked out in time with much prayer, suffering and sacrifice made.

I deeply admire all non-Catholics that take their faith seriously and live a prayerful Christian life. They are an example to me.

Peace,

Dorothy


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:25 pm 
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Pray for those lacking in faith.

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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:48 pm 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Yes! :pray:


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:55 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
I will comment on the quote I chose.

I understood Michael D. O'Brien to make the point that there is a lot of volunteers in many parishes who visit people at nursing homes. help at soup kitchens, become ccd teachers, Eucharistic ministers, and so on.

However, a large number of Catholics do not accept all the moral teachings, (no contraception or abortion).... or dogmas of faith (the Eucharist being the Real Presence, etc.)

So, just like it is said that faith without works is not enough, isn't it so that works without faith is not enough?

Is it poor catechesis? Not enough prayer? or just living in this culture? Or perhaps all three that brings this about?
Dorothy, you suggest that "works without faith is not enough", and then you suggest that what you mean by "faith" is dogmatic teachings such as "the Eucharist being the Real Presense". I think it would be a very narrow attitude to believe that anyone who doesn't believe in the Real Presense of the Eucharist doesn't have faith. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "faith", in the context of "faith without works is not enough". I hope you don't think that the only people who have "faith" are the people who believe exactly what you believe.

What motivates people to do good works if not faith?


St Thomas Aquinas, Adoro te Devote:

    Visus, tactus, gustus in te fallitur,
    Sed auditu solo tuto creditur.
    Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius;
    Nil hoc verbo Veritátis verius
    .


    (Sight, touch, taste are all deceived in their judgment of you,
    But hearing suffices firmly to believe.
    I believe all that the Son of God has spoken;
    There is nothing truer than this word of Truth
    .)

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Jack3
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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:19 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
I will comment on the quote I chose.

I understood Michael D. O'Brien to make the point that there is a lot of volunteers in many parishes who visit people at nursing homes. help at soup kitchens, become ccd teachers, Eucharistic ministers, and so on.

However, a large number of Catholics do not accept all the moral teachings, (no contraception or abortion).... or dogmas of faith (the Eucharist being the Real Presence, etc.)

So, just like it is said that faith without works is not enough, isn't it so that works without faith is not enough?

Is it poor catechesis? Not enough prayer? or just living in this culture? Or perhaps all three that brings this about?
Dorothy, you suggest that "works without faith is not enough", and then you suggest that what you mean by "faith" is dogmatic teachings such as "the Eucharist being the Real Presense". I think it would be a very narrow attitude to believe that anyone who doesn't believe in the Real Presense of the Eucharist doesn't have faith. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "faith", in the context of "faith without works is not enough". I hope you don't think that the only people who have "faith" are the people who believe exactly what you believe.

What motivates people to do good works if not faith?


St Thomas Aquinas, Adoro te Devote:

    Visus, tactus, gustus in te fallitur,
    Sed auditu solo tuto creditur.
    Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius;
    Nil hoc verbo Veritátis verius
    .


    (Sight, touch, taste are all deceived in their judgment of you,
    But hearing suffices firmly to believe.
    I believe all that the Son of God has spoken;
    There is nothing truer than this word of Truth
    .)

Jack, I have no idea as to how your post is relevant to this discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:22 am 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
I will comment on the quote I chose.

I understood Michael D. O'Brien to make the point that there is a lot of volunteers in many parishes who visit people at nursing homes. help at soup kitchens, become ccd teachers, Eucharistic ministers, and so on.

However, a large number of Catholics do not accept all the moral teachings, (no contraception or abortion).... or dogmas of faith (the Eucharist being the Real Presence, etc.)

So, just like it is said that faith without works is not enough, isn't it so that works without faith is not enough?

Is it poor catechesis? Not enough prayer? or just living in this culture? Or perhaps all three that brings this about?
Dorothy, you suggest that "works without faith is not enough", and then you suggest that what you mean by "faith" is dogmatic teachings such as "the Eucharist being the Real Presense". I think it would be a very narrow attitude to believe that anyone who doesn't believe in the Real Presense of the Eucharist doesn't have faith. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "faith", in the context of "faith without works is not enough". I hope you don't think that the only people who have "faith" are the people who believe exactly what you believe.

What motivates people to do good works if not faith?


Denise, I was making the point to Catholics who go to Mass every Sunday and believe that they can obey what they want to obey and disregard the moral teachings of the Church (contraception and abortion, among others) and think that it is okay.

I cannot judge others who are Christians that do not believe in the Real Presence. I have heard Catholics tell me that they do not take seriously the teaching of the Real Presence at Mass. And, then I hear the statistics that come back from questionnaires that say there is a large amount of Catholics who do not believe that.

A lack of obedience, prayerfulness, and adherence to all the teachings among some clergy and congregation is what got us in this mess we are in now.

It will be worked out in time with much prayer, suffering and sacrifice made.

I deeply admire all non-Catholics that take their faith seriously and live a prayerful Christian life. They are an example to me.

Peace,

Dorothy

I understand your concerns, Dorothy. I think it depends on which way you look at things. Is the glass half empty or half full? On the one hand you see Catholics who go to Mass every Sunday, who visit people at nursing homes, help at soup kitchens, etc, but who do not adhere to all Catholic teachings. But at least they are going to Mass every Sunday, and visiting people at nursing homes, helping at soup kitchens, etc. Perhaps that's a great step forward towards God for those Catholics, and God rejoices over everyone who turns to him without waiting for them to be perfect first, as illustrated in the parable of the Prodigal Son.

As for the Eucharist being the Real Presence, that's a difficult teaching for anyone to understand, and it's not easy to believe something you don't understand. It's easier to simply say you don't believe it if you don't understand it. I don't think I understand the Real Presence. I understand that there is no physical presence of the body or blood of Jesus in the communion bread or wine, and I understand that God is in everything, so I don't understand how the Eucharist contains the body and blood of Jesus in a way that is not physical and is not the same as God being in everything.

Whether or not you understand how the Eucharist is the Real Presense, Dorothy, and how this differs from Anglican beliefs about the Eucharist, I don't think you should be too harsh on those who don't understand it and therefore don't necessarily believe it. It is a difficult doctrine.


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:26 pm 
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(Sight, touch, taste are all deceived in their judgment of you,
But hearing suffices firmly to believe.
I believe all that the Son of God has spoken;
There is nothing truer than this word of Truth.)

As rendered in one of my favorite hymns:

Taste and touch and vision
to discern Thee fail
Faith that comes by hearing
Pierces through the veil.

I believe whatever the Son of God has told.
What the Truth has spoken,
That for Truth I hold.

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Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:05 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
... As for the Eucharist being the Real Presence, that's a difficult teaching for anyone to understand, and it's not easy to believe something you don't understand. It's easier to simply say you don't believe it if you don't understand it. I don't think I understand the Real Presence. I understand that there is no physical presence of the body or blood of Jesus in the communion bread or wine, and I understand that God is in everything, so I don't understand how the Eucharist contains the body and blood of Jesus in a way that is not physical and is not the same as God being in everything.

Whether or not you understand how the Eucharist is the Real Presense, Dorothy, and how this differs from Anglican beliefs about the Eucharist, I don't think you should be too harsh on those who don't understand it and therefore don't necessarily believe it. It is a difficult doctrine.


You may find it helpful to understand the Real Presence as 'substantially' present, which also distinguishes from 'not the same as God being in everything.'

I don't ever find our gentle Dorothy to be harsh. In this instance I believe she is only wondering, or asking.

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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:45 pm 
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"and how this differs from Anglican beliefs about the Eucharist,..."

Which are what, exactly?

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Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:08 pm 
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"Exactly" and "Anglican" can be a dicey combination.

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 Post subject: Re: There is a lot I don't know...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:27 pm 
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Notnew wrote:

I don't ever find our gentle Dorothy to be harsh. In this instance I believe she is only wondering, or asking.

I agree.


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