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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:01 am 
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techno.doll wrote:
The question here was what you would do if the world suddenly went on a Catholic killing spree. I was then told that to deny Christ is to be denied by Christ. Therefore: to be in a predicament where you are going to be killed for your faith which you are not allowed to deny, you, along with your faith, would be wiped from the earth. If this were to happen, no one would be able to follow the "true" Church because it does not exist resulting in generations with no hope of salvation.

My point is that in this situation, the Church's plan seems incomplete.

And the fact that I had to spell out all of this so you could understand where I am coming from does little to reflect on your reading comprehension skills.

Yet you are the one who everyone keeps telling to reread the items on this board. :laughhard
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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:17 am 
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We've already been there, done that. The Church was born into a world where it was a death sentence to be a member of it. We seem to have pulled through ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:32 am 
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caleb wrote:
I believe techno.doll is correct in the implication that we are not always required to jeopardize our lives by exposing ourselves as Christians. First, isn't it true that the early Christians used various tactics to avoid detection and persecution? Second, even in the face of direct questioning, aren't there some times when the Catholic teaching on "mental reservations," or equivocation, would apply?

Yep. That's an important point. The OP, if I recall, was talking about simply risking one's life to go to Mass, but the discussion has shifted some. It's true that not everyone is required to jump out and write a letter to the emperor like Justin Martyr proclaiming one's belief or hand oneself over to the authorities to be hauled off to the euthanasia machine, as the case may be.

I'm not as sure about how mental reservations would apply.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:47 am 
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Max Kolbe wrote:
I'm not as sure about how mental reservations would apply.
Mental reservations would apply in the face of direct questioning. For example, should a hostile authority ask some member of a group of Christians, Are there any Christians here?, a Christian there could respond either with silence or, if silence were too dangerous, with an equivocal response like, "I do not know of any." The speaker would hold this equivocal statement to mean, I do not know of any that I can tell you about. The hostile party, who has no right to every single fact of the matter, would probably hear a bald, No, yet the speaker neither would have denied Christ nor would have lied, strictly speaking.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:56 am 
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I know what mental reservations are. However, it's not clear to me that a persecutor doesn't have a right to know. Our Lord seems to say that in such circumstances we are brought to them in order to bear witness to Him. Also, you seem to give an example of a strict mental reservation (one from which the interrogator cannot in any way surmise the truth) that would be morally illicit anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:09 am 
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In the situation I just described, though, the case doesn't involve a one-on-one interrogation, but rather an interrogation that affects numerous people. Nor is it a strict mental reservation because the missing words are not added in the speaker's mind but are withheld for good reasons in the situation.

A strict mental reservation would be something like this: Suppose you have a ring to sell and ask me, "Do you want to buy this ring from me for a thousand dollars?" I say, "Yes," take the ring away, and withhold my intention not to pay you any money before five years pass.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:19 am 
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caleb wrote:
In the situation I just described, though, the case doesn't involve a one-on-one interrogation, but rather an interrogation that affects numerous people. Nor is it a strict mental reservation because the missing words are not added in the speaker's mind but are withheld for good reasons in the situation.

A strict mental reservation would be something like this: Suppose you have a ring to sell and ask me, "Do you want to buy this ring from me for a thousand dollars?" I say, "Yes," take the ring away, and withhold my intention not to pay you any money before five years pass.

I disagree with your characterization of strict mental reservation, but I don't see any point in continuing the tangent.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:21 am 
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Techno wrote:
if anything, you are doing it to survive so that in a situation where Catholics are being killed at such alarming rates, you could be one more strong for the cause.


What good does it do to gain the world and lose your soul?

Techno, if I am asked if I believe in Christ, if I am Christian/Catholic, I cannot equivocate and deny either charge and expect to be rewarded with eternal life.

I would rather die a martyr than lose my salvation.

And I believe that God spoke True when He told us He would be with us (the Church) always - that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

The problem with your outlook on the situation is that there is no trust in God. You instead trust only yourself.

I think you need to spend some time doing some reflection and reading on the martyrs of the Church and discover that being Catholic is more than professing your Faith in the easy times, but to stand for it in the darkest of times.

It is because of those who gave up their lives rather than deny their Faith and their Saviour that the Church flourished. Seems like a dichotomy but there it is.

Can I keep my Faith low-key and still be true to it? Sure. But come a time when the choice is to deny it outright in order to live, that is the time that the rubber hits the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:47 pm 
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If Rome hadn't changed it's official religion, the odds for Christianity to survive would have been extremely low. If the entire world is at arms and there is no safe place to flee (as was said in the original predicament) those odds would decrease significantly.

You are right however. I don't have faith that God will provide all of the solutions without human effort. I believe that God helps those who help themselves...but many of these teachings make that difficult. We are told not to lie, yet this is a very vital survival strategy in a time like this. To say you don't know of any Christians would be a lie because you yourself are a Christian.

I can't accept a plan where the solutions don't cover all of the problems, such as the future for generations to come with no true Church. Perhaps this is irrelevent forsight?


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:11 pm 
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techno.doll wrote:
If Rome hadn't changed it's official religion, the odds for Christianity to survive would have been extremely low. If the entire world is at arms and there is no safe place to flee (as was said in the original predicament) those odds would decrease significantly.

Then explain why it is that Catholicism flourished under Roman oppression.

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You are right however. I don't have faith that God will provide all of the solutions without human effort. I believe that God helps those who help themselves...but many of these teachings make that difficult. We are told not to lie, yet this is a very vital survival strategy in a time like this. To say you don't know of any Christians would be a lie because you yourself are a Christian.

I can't accept a plan where the solutions don't cover all of the problems, such as the future for generations to come with no true Church. Perhaps this is irrelevent forsight?

What on earth are you blathering on about? Lying is a piss poor survival strategy if by survival you mean saving your soul from eternal damnation.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:20 pm 
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I'd rather be "dead" for accepting Christ than DEAD for denying him.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Christianity spread because it was not outlawed everywhere and with the limited technologies of the era, it wouldn't be so easy as in modern times.

Yes but by your (and subequently everyone else) being dead, so would the Catholic faith.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:33 pm 
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techno.doll wrote:
Christianity spread because it was not outlawed everywhere and with the limited technologies of the era, it wouldn't be so easy as in modern times.

Yes but by your (and subequently everyone else) being dead, so would the Catholic faith.

"Dead" - think about it. Why would I care if all the heathens were left on the Earth?

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Yes, why would you care? Your in heaven.

Who cares that everyone else on earth has no chance of entering heaven since there is no Church on earth for them to follow.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:41 pm 
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techno.doll wrote:
Christianity spread because it was not outlawed everywhere and with the limited technologies of the era, it wouldn't be so easy as in modern times.

Yes but by your (and subequently everyone else) being dead, so would the Catholic faith.

If all the Catholics die I suppose that would be the case, but since that wouldn't happen it doesn't matter. If God can do anything can he make a rock so big he can't lift it?

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:50 pm 
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If God can do anything then there would nothing he couldn't do I suppose.

You say it wouldn't happen, but say it does? This plan proposed would leave no hope for the future...

The only plan would not be a plan at all but a hope that God independently would act.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:09 pm 
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Techno, this is why I asked if you were asking to find something to criticize or to try to understand. You're now fixating on some hypothetical that doesn't really get us anywhere. So let me deal with the hypothetical and you can forget about it, OK? God has promised not to let the gates of Hell prevail against the Catholic Church just as surely as He has promised salvation through that faith. Were the former to happen - were some wicked tyrant to completely exterminate the Catholic faith without it marking the end of the world and Christ's glorious return - it would not matter at all in the sense you're talking about, because the Catholic faith would have been shown false, along with its claims to being the universal sacrament of salvation. Of course I don't believe that's possible. But your hypothetical refutes itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:31 pm 
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techno

Did you miss the promise of Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail agains the Church?

Do you accept that Christ speaks the truth?

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:41 pm 
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It refutes itself because God promised the Church wouldn't end- I can understand that. That's why I said my second sentence because everything would rest on the promise (I said hope my mistake) that God would intervene.

I guess the lesson here (for me at least) would be that I don't trust God.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:43 pm 
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Well, that explains your conundrum

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