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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:39 pm 
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These are two very different scenarios. In the scenario that you are being hunted down for your belief, and can not deny your belief, you have no choice BUT to die. As soon as someone asks you if you are a Christian that is the end and the end of all Christians would come very soon.

In the scenario of Rev MLK, you are fighting for your belief by means of law, politics, and other strategies. Poeple know your purpose but since EVERYONE is not out to get you, your able to make a plan. Your main strategy is not to be a martyr (like in the above scenario) but to find the best way to fight your enemy.

From what I've read, God expects people to give up their lives just so they can worship Him...I need some serious time for that one because forcing someone to worship you while they face death is hard for me to praise in all honesty.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:46 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:55 pm 
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I have no idea. I've put others before myself, but I believe thats as far it is goes. Why would that have anything to do with this?


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:58 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:59 pm 
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Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

I would die for my child, for my mom, my husband, my family... I love them. How much more he who died for me?

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:00 am 
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Wouldn't it be even greater if you died for someone you didn't know?


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:07 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:17 am 
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I mean, sacrificing for your family or people who love you or with whom you have any kind of connection with is indeed admirable but in a way expected. No one would expect anyone to die for someone they didn't love or barely know. I think it's these people who are exceptionally heroic.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:19 am 
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Quote:
Matthew 16: [24] Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [25] For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.

[26] For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:31 am 
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In Matt 16 is he talking about a lifestyle change or that people should follow him and subsequently, die?

Again, I thought "gain the whole world...lose his soul" was supposed to suggest that people give up their materialistic selves to follow him.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:42 am 
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Since the word materialistic doesn't exist in that chapter, I would think that you are looking at someone's idea of what Christ was talking about.

If you deny your faith and deny Christ in order to live, you have not denied yourself, instead you are trying to save your life - thus losing eternal life.

I probably should have quoted Luke or Mark who take this particular passage one step further:

[38] For he that shall be ashamed of me, and of my words, in this adulterous and sinful generation: the Son of man also will be ashamed of him, when he shall come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

And remember Christ also told us:

"[32] Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven. [33] But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven. "

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:49 am 
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I was not saying that you would be ashamed in denying Christ: if anything, you are doing it to survive so that in a situation where Catholics are being killed at such alarming rates, you could be one more strong for the cause. However, since the Church tells us that we can not claim being anything other than Catholic, there would be no hope for the Churches survival.

But this poses another problem:

If all the Catholics are killed, and the Catholic faith along with it, and there is no salvation outside of the Church, everyone from that point on would be damned. This poses a problem not of this world but of the next also does it not?


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:00 am 
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In another thread you said that all anyone needed to do was read the Catechism and they'd be able to teach Catholcism yet here someone has already given reasonss from the catechism for not making oneself a martyr and you continue to ask dense questions. The scanning for keynotes may get you through college but you are going to struggle in life if you don't start reading for comprehension. (please excuse my typing I'm on an I-phone)

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:20 am 
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The question here was what you would do if the world suddenly went on a Catholic killing spree. I was then told that to deny Christ is to be denied by Christ. Therefore: to be in a predicament where you are going to be killed for your faith which you are not allowed to deny, you, along with your faith, would be wiped from the earth. If this were to happen, no one would be able to follow the "true" Church because it does not exist resulting in generations with no hope of salvation.

My point is that in this situation, the Church's plan seems incomplete.

And the fact that I had to spell out all of this so you could understand where I am coming from does little to reflect on your reading comprehension skills.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:31 am 
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No, the Church's plan is not incomplete. THis one was a no brainer. The head of the Church would lead subsequent generations, were there any, to salvation

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:09 am 
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technodoll wrote: <<My point is that in this situation, the Church's plan seems incomplete.>>

Please remember that the blood of martyrs is transformed into the seed of Christians! :pray:

also: Luke 1:37 "For nothing is impossible for God." :cloud9:

The Church's plan (God's plan) SEEMS incomplete. We need to learn to trust wholeheartedly.
Daily practice makes perfect!


(Soon I am leaving for a week-long family reunion, so I will have to absent myself from the thread for now.)


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:28 am 
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techno.doll wrote:
From what I've read, God expects people to give up their lives just so they can worship Him...I need some serious time for that one because forcing someone to worship you while they face death is hard for me to praise in all honesty.

Sometimes when we look at a thing only from outside we don't see the whole picture clearly. This is a great example. You're kind of forcing this into outside categories you've brought with you that are alien to this question. It's not about force. It's about love and it's about justice. God loved me enough to die for me. My love for Him is not nearly what it should be, but I can see clearly that it ought to call me to the same commitment. And how could it ever be just to deny so great a truth and so great a God just to placate some wicked person or society or even world that wished to kill me for it? Again, even our worldly culture, even our stories old and new are full of this truth. It is the hero, the good guy, who sacrifices and perhaps dies even for the things he loves in this world.

I'm afraid I am going to shock you even more when I say that we should be willing to die to avoid any serious sin. If I were more holy, I would be brave enough to say any sin at all.

ETA: I think I should add that the general principle here is not some crazy thing Jews and Christians made up. The Christian form of the virtue of fortitude (or courage) is developed and built up by grace, to be sure, but it is built upon the natural virtue recognize explicitly by the pagan Greeks and Romans and implicitly by every ancient culture everywhere the world over. It's only in our recent time of utilitarianism and individualism and nihilism that this has become obscure to some of us.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:36 am 
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Techno.doll, you should re-read the comments on this page, they are very good. What you are thinking of as death is not the end of the road, but the beginning. The purpose of life is not to live as long as possible, but to live as well as possible in knowing, loving, and serving the Lord. Sometimes that may mean laying down your earthly life.

When Christ left the apostles after the ascension and the Catholic Church was in its infancy, it was illegal to be Catholic. The entire Church was in the Roman empire and it was a death penalty to be caught. All the apostles except John were martyrs killed for their faith. Many of the others were too. The blood of the martyrs watered the ground of the Church and it grew and grew.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:50 am 
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I think it is worthy to keep in mind that should it become illegal world over to be Catholic that does not necesssarily mean every catholic will be forced to answer the question "are you christian?" As in the time of elijah, God always keeps a remnant for himself and they will carry on building up the church by his grace.

Someone bought up the holocaust earlier in the thread. It was very difficult during the time of the nazis for any jews to survive, yet many did because of the heroic acts of those who chose to hide them, refused to turn them in and helped them to escape persecution. There were jews who were never asked the question "are you jewish", because they were hidden from the eyes of the nazis. This too would happen to some extent during any persecution of the Church, and no doubt is happening now in countries where christianity is illegal.

The church does not require us to scream to the world that we are christian, only not to deny if asked.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:38 am 
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techno.doll wrote:
but since your told that you must never deny Christ, you'd have no choice in the matter and your only hope would indeed be that Jesus Himself/God were coming.
As has been pointed out many times already, there are ideals, people, and other things that are more valuable than one's life. Death before dishonor, is how Socrates put it.
techno.doll wrote:
The absolute worst thing which you could do would be to expose yourself as a Catholic. In order to save the Church (and the sanity of the world at this point) the only option is a highly organized revolution against such a destructive, tyrannical, monstrous power.
I believe techno.doll is correct in the implication that we are not always required to jeopardize our lives by exposing ourselves as Christians. First, isn't it true that the early Christians used various tactics to avoid detection and persecution? Second, even in the face of direct questioning, aren't there some times when the Catholic teaching on "mental reservations," or equivocation, would apply?


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