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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:31 am 
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juststartn wrote:
I pray for the grace and strength to bear it. Should it come to pass that it is needful.

Rachel


you and me both... :pray:

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:50 am 
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Demotriton wrote:
Just a thought. What if Christianity was made illegal worldwide and the penalty for practicing any form of Christianity was death. This would of course include Mass as well as adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Would you still attend Mass as well as adore our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament?


The absolute worst thing which you could do would be to expose yourself as a Catholic. In order to save the Church (and the sanity of the world at this point) the only option is a highly organized revolution against such a destructive, tyrannical, monstrous power. Only when freedom is restored could the hope of the Church's salvation or anyone's salvation for that matter) be even considered possible.

And the fact that someone allowed that chinese child to even be in that situation is atrocious on the part of the adults involved.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Okay.

1: The blueprints of how to lead the "revolution" were written a long time ago. When the Church was first founded. There was persecution then too, remember? A great many hid. A great many repudiated their Faith.

I am already exposed as a Catholic. Do you think the government could not figure out who the Catholics are if they have already been publically practicing their Faith? Espcially in this day and age of information? Would you repudiate your Faith in order to stay safe?

2: Freedom restored is not the hope for the Church's salvation. God is. The Church will persevere.

3: That chinese child is not the only child to ever die for the Faith. I think you do a great wrong to that child to think that they cannot make a choice for their own Faith or that God's Grace did not have a hand in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:50 pm 
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techno.doll wrote:

And the fact that someone allowed that chinese child to even be in that situation is atrocious on the part of the adults involved.


Does your enthusiastic defense of children include the unborn?

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:20 pm 
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If it were a world-wide phenomenon then the tactics used by the first Christians would not really be of much use. No two eras are alike and should not be treated as such. Instead, it would be most wise to evaluate the specific situation at hand and cater to it's specific needs.

If the government finds out your a Catholic then there's nothing you can do. However, if you expose yourself as one purposefully then all you'd be doing is helping them in the extermination.

You say God is the answer, but if you lack the freedom to worship Him then you won't get anywhere.

Would you let an 11 year old child into a Church when you very well knew she could be killed if someone found her there??


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:24 pm 
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We believe God is real.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Yes, but you should also believe in youselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:38 pm 
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We believe God is God and we're not. We also believe He has told us some things, such as that we are to expect persecution, and how to respond to it. None of that seems to be entering in to how you think about these things, so I thought I would point them out.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:42 pm 
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Perhaps I am ignorant of these things.

What is the Catholic teaching on how to respond to something like world-wide persecution then?


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:50 pm 
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I hope this won't come across the wrong way, techno, but I have noticed you have been in some fairly intense conversations today on DCF. Are you asking because you're looking for things to criticize in those teachings or because you want to understand them? If it's the latter, let's start with some familiar words of Christ, in St. Matthew's Gospel:

Quote:
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


Later in the same Gospel He says:

Quote:
Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves. But beware of people, for they will hand you over to courts and scourge you in their synagogues, and you will be led before governors and kings for my sake as a witness before them and the pagans. When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say. You will be given at that moment what you are to say. For it will not be you who speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will hand over brother to death, and the father his child; children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. No disciple is above his teacher, no slave above his master. It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, for the slave that he become like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more those of his household!

Therefore do not be afraid of them. Nothing is concealed that will not be revealed, nor secret that will not be known. What I say to you in the darkness, speak in the light; what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father's knowledge. Even all the hairs of your head are counted. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.

Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's enemies will be those of his household.'

Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me. Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is righteous will receive a righteous man's reward. And whoever gives only a cup of cold water to one of these little ones to drink because he is a disciple--amen, I say to you, he will surely not lose his reward.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:57 pm 
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I probably am coming across as intense because I didn't realize what the Crhuch actually taught and Her view on matters...and to be frank, it's a bit disturbing to me.

According to the above, Catholics have to admit their faith even if it means death. I don't understand this though. If everyone were to admit to being a Catholic, then everyone would die. Without Catholics there can be no Catholic Church. This would be suicide of self and of Church.

In a situation where the entire world is persecuting Catholics, this would do nothing to save the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:02 pm 
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techno.doll wrote:
I probably am coming across as intense because I didn't realize what the Crhuch actually taught and Her view on matters...and to be frank, it's a bit disturbing to me.

According to the above, Catholics have to admit their faith even if it means death. I don't understand this though. If everyone were to admit to being a Catholic, then everyone would die. Without Catholics there can be no Catholic Church. This would be suicide of self and of Church.

In a situation where the entire world is persecuting Catholics, this would do nothing to save the Church.


No, Jesus was not a liar.

Jesus promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

Christianity is a battlefield, not a garden party.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:12 pm 
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techno.doll wrote:
I probably am coming across as intense because I didn't realize what the Crhuch actually taught and Her view on matters...and to be frank, it's a bit disturbing to me.

I didn't just mean you. The conversations have been intense. As for being disturbed by the Church's teaching, some of it is hard to come to grips with, so take your time and be patient with yourself.

Quote:
According to the above, Catholics have to admit their faith even if it means death. I don't understand this though. If everyone were to admit to being a Catholic, then everyone would die. Without Catholics there can be no Catholic Church. This would be suicide of self and of Church.

In a situation where the entire world is persecuting Catholics, this would do nothing to save the Church.

A few things. First, we don't believe this life is most important thing there is. Second, we believe God is the God of history and is not a silent bystander in the world. Jesus dying on the Cross certainly did not look like a victory in this world for what is good and true and beautiful, but it was in fact the greatest victory ever. We see echoes of it in every martyr - in the Apostles who conquered the known world for Christ by their deaths, all the way down to my patron saint, St. Maximilian Kolbe, who died in Auschwitz bearing witness to Christ by giving his life for another man. We trust that God brings good out of evil and triumphs in the end.

In Mother Teresa's words, God does not call us to be successful - He calls us to be faithful.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:40 pm 
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You say Christianity is a battlefield, yet your answer is not to fight but to think God will suddenly come down and save you. This reminds me of the man in the flood.

What I'm getting to is that simply believing God will come is not enough to save any religion unless God actually really does come. In the situation of a global massacre like this: by letting yourselves be killed you are not fighting. I hate to say this, but if you want to say God saved the Jews from the holocaust (not saying you said this just if anyone thinks this in general), He did it through the armies of other countries who went in and physically stopped it. There was strategy, planning, and an understanding of what was to be done in that specific circumstance.

It would make most sense to pray yes but to also make a plan. If the Church is saying that you should not make a plan, then I can't side with the Church on that one.


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:46 pm 
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We are, of course, to do all that is morally within our means. No one is denying that. Jesus says in one of the passages above to flee a city where you are persecuted. By to deny Christ is not morally within our means. And we believe the Catholic Church is the Church God has founded and the true religion. It is the prophesy of Scripture and Tradition that it is not our destiny in this world to achieve final victory. Here's how the Catechism of the Catholic Church describes it:

Quote:
675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

That will come in God's Providence and God's time, not because of any action or inaction on our part.

ETA: You mentioned the idea that Christianity, or more precisely the world, is a battlefield. But please keep in mind that it's primarily a spiritual battlefield, not battle against flesh and blood. Our weapons are primarily prayer and fasting and almsgiving.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:53 pm 
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Who said anything about God coming down and saving someone?

Really, start reading the Scriptures and the lives of the Saints. Those martyrs shed blood for the love of Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:00 pm 
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Yes Max- I believe that slightly differently though. I believe that the mind is the most potent weapon when it comes to the world.

I'm not fully able to understand everything being said in that section of the Catechism...so forgive me if I'm wrong, but is it referring to Revelation when Jesus comes back?

I've read about how the martyrs were killed and most in horrible, horrible ways. But what I'm saying is that it was a different era and in this day and age, there are new ways to spread the Catholic faith without having to make it blantantly obvious that you are Catholic. I guess my point is that in certain circumstances (like a world-wide persecution) it would be best if you didn't claim to be Catholic...but since your told that you must never deny Christ, you'd have no choice in the matter and your only hope would indeed be that Jesus Himself/God were coming.


Last edited by techno.doll on Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:01 pm 
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techno.doll wrote:
Yes Max- I believe that slightly differently though. I believe that the mind is the most potent weapon when it comes to the world.

I'm not fully able to understand everything being said in that section of the Catechism...so forgive me if I'm wrong, but is it referring to Revelation when Jesus comes back?

I've read about how the martyrs were killed and most in horrible, horrible ways. But what I'm saying is that it was a different era and in this day and age, there are new ways to spread the Catholic faith without having to make it blantantly obvious that you are Catholic. I guess my point is that in certain circumstances (like a world-wide persecuation) it would be best if you didn't claim to be Catholic...but since your told that you must never deny Christ, you'd have no choice in the matter and your only hope would indeed be that Jesus Himself/God were coming.

Actually, there Kelly is making the point I was making earlier in a somewhat different way: If in God's Providence He calls me to be a martyr, my hope is not Him coming to rescue me in this life but Him bringing me to eternal life with Him.

Keep in mind that this life is short even if you live to 100. Eternity is, well, forever.

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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:12 pm 
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techno.doll wrote:
I've read about how the martyrs were killed and most in horrible, horrible ways. But what I'm saying is that it was a different era and in this day and age, there are new ways to spread the Catholic faith without having to make it blantantly obvious that you are Catholic. I guess my point is that in certain circumstances (like a world-wide persecution) it would be best if you didn't claim to be Catholic...but since your told that you must never deny Christ, you'd have no choice in the matter and your only hope would indeed be that Jesus Himself/God were coming.


A different day and age? There are people right now right this very minute that are attending an underground Mass in countries like Saudia Arabia where practicing Christianity holds a death sentence. Do you think Christians in those countries would be better off denying Christ? Skipping Mass? And believe me, on a weekly basis there is a beheading of a Christian just to show the other Christians what will happen to them. Should Christians there just give up? Perhaps some do, but some also gather quietly/ Pray quietly, peacefully and if they are blessed, they have a priest available to them that may celebrate Mass and give them the opportunity to receive Jesus... more than ever they need to be uplifted and given strength to live in their community another week or until they are able to receive Him again.

Though they are not recognized by the church as the saints are, there are probably many Christians who suffer at the hands of their persecutors even today... who do not deny Christ and die because of it. Though we don't know their names or anything about them doesn't lesson the fact that they too are martyrs.

Lisa


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 Post subject: Re: Would you die for Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:27 pm 
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Maybe another way to look at it, techno, is that even in a worldly sense we see an echo of this. Who was the more admirable man? The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. or someone whose name is now forgotten who believed in the same good cause MLK did but stopped standing for it the moment there was a threat of violence? You mentioned earlier in the thread the men who fought the Germans and ended the Holocaust. Many of them died for good causes.

When people lay down their lives in service to love, in defense of some good - for love of an individual person or persons, love of justice, love of country - we admire them for it. How much more, then, for love of God, the ultimate good and the source of all good? When Jesus suffered his Passion, it was for love of you and me personally. Why shouldn't I love Him and be faithful to Him?

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